Colt: The Continued Soap Opera.

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My, my, how could that be given:

The drawings had no value (existing or potential) to the people who had them so they trashed them...

...Whatever. The drawings were reportedly trashed so it is rather pointless to argue about what value they might have if they had been retained...

Engineering drawings, process sheets, obsolete gauges, etc. are intellectual property that a competitor could use. The attorneys would never allow those items to get out the door without being destroyed...

At least you did some research before responding this time. If you would have dug a bit deeper you would have noticed this donation was made by Colt back in 1957 -- when many of its DA revolvers were in production -- definitely not a time when they would have been donating what we have been talking about -- engineering drawings, process specs, master gauging, etc. (at least for current models.)

In any event I have absolutely no question that Colt's assets include engineering drawings for just about any gun they produced in the 20th and 21st Centuries, process specifications (many of which I'm sure are still in use), master gauging, etc. Sure would be interesting to see the Morgan Stanley list so all this "trashing" nonsense can be put to bed once and for all.
 
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My, my, how could that be...

How that could be is the company considered them trash and ordered them disposed of. Someone donated them to the library instead. That happens. The Pres/CEO of a company I worked for directed me to have some old computer equipment hauled to a dump. Instead, I found a charity that could make use of it.

That is what you don't seem to understand (or want to accept): There are plenty of ways it could have happened, and plenty of reasons why.

At least you did some research before responding this time. If you would have dug a bit deeper you would have noticed this donation was made by Colt back in 1957 -- when many of its DA revolvers were in production -- definitely not a time when they would have been donating what we have been talking about -- engineering drawings, process specs, master gauging, etc. (at least for current models.)

In any event I have absolutely no question that Colt's assets include engineering drawings for just about any gun they produced in the 20th and 21st Centuries, process specifications (many of which I'm sure are still in use), master gauging, etc. Sure would be interesting to see the Morgan Stanley list so all this "trashing" nonsense can be put to bed once and for all.

Since I do recail reports that they were trashed/discarded/disposed of, I have doubts and will continue to have them until it is demonstrated (not just argued) otherwise. You are welcome to do the research that would require.

Yes, I'm sure they have all the drawings for what they currently have in production, and perhaps for the Anaconda since it was designed for modern manufacturing. But any of the other revolvers? Or the Woodsman? Well, we now know where some of those records might be.

The more important point is that even if they do still exist and are in Colt's possession or can be reacquired, they still have little value except as collectors items. Almost all of the guns I mentioned were designed a produced during a time when labor was cheap and machinery was expensive. Their production methods were designed to take advantage of this. But modern methods are the exact opposite. Cheap machines, expensive people. To build a Python today using the original design and production methods would result in a gun few would pay the price for. With low demand, Colt would be upside down very quickly because while machines can be shut down, people are expensive, both to keep around or lay off.

They could perhaps redesign the Python to make production costs more reasonable by scaling down the Anaconda, but the result would not be the same quality customers would expect from a Python so there is the quesiton of how much interest there would be. Especially with S&W and Ruger making guns that would probably be competive in both price and quality. I love Pythons, but I would buy something just becasue it carried the rollmark.
 
Would somebody please explain why the King Cobra and Anaconda platforms would NOT be profitable? Seems like they could be priced at the same level (or slightly higher) than comparative Ruger and Smith products. They aren't Pythons...
 
post #203 ....

To answer post #203, I think it was a issue of the Colt plant machines & equipment used in the manufacture of the DA revolvers was becoming older & wore out. New parts, repairs & maintance was a serious problem for Colt.
Not just the Python revolver line but the other well known Colt revolvers: King Cobra, Anaconda, Agent/D frame .38spl, etc.
I wouldn't buy any Colt revolver if they cut corners or didn't have the same high standards as the Colt revolvers of the 1980s/1990s.

To be clear, I'm not knocking Colt for ending the full production runs for revolvers if by the early 2000s, they didn't feel it was cost effective or prudent considering the rapid growth-interest in double stack DA/striker fired semi auto pistols. The Glocks, SIGs, HKs, M&Ps, XDs, etc.

I never owned any Pythons or King Cobras. I would have purchased a new in box Python if I wanted a great .357magnum in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s.
 
Would somebody please explain why the King Cobra and Anaconda platforms would NOT be profitable?

Keeping tooling updated has been mentioned. Add to that they contained many internal parts that were purchased from sub-contractors - who put them on cash-in-advance status.

Last but not least, they made a deal with the Clinton White House to restrict their product line to models that were only of interest to collectors, in exchange for being dropped to an ongoing series of lawsuits that had been brought against the entire handgun industry by a number of city governments and 2 state Attorney General's mostly controlled by Democrats, in an effort to destroy or control the respondents. It failed when only S&W capitulated, and in a shortly following election Al Gore failed to be elected president.

Also keep in mind that the top management were only interested in government orders for M16 platform rifles. They wanted out of the handgun business, and were try to sell their handgun division, but no one would pay the asking price.
 
Would somebody please explain why the King Cobra and Anaconda platforms would NOT be profitable? Seems like they could be priced at the same level (or slightly higher) than comparative Ruger and Smith products. They aren't Pythons...

I suspect they would be. I'm not sure how great the demand would be, but just about any revolver with Colt's name on it will sell at some level.

As limited as its product line is today, Colt's does seem to finally be doing a bit better from a manufacturing standpoint. Their products are high quality and they're finally able to make enough to satisfy demand. That wasn't the case for a very long time.

I think Colt's got out of lower demand products like DA revolvers to focus on the M1911 and their AR series of rifles. I think Colt's would already be producing some of their legacy DA revolvers (perhaps with some updates) if they so much of their effort wasn't focused on the $500M millstone hanging around their necks.
 
The sale of the handgun side didn't fail as much from the asking price as it did from the confusion over which company owned what branding & intellectual property rights.

I suspected when Colt merged the two again that they might be positioning for sale or bankruptcy, but emphasize THAT IS ONLY MY SPECULATION.

As for bringing back "legacy" models, they wouldn't even without that debt structure.
An unprofitable line back then would still be an unprofitable line today, with or without debt.
 
i fail to understand how the woodsman couldn't be made profitable. there are lots of target shooters out there.
rugers are really plinkers n require lots of mods to be made good. a target gun from the factory that shot like a target gun out of the box would sell.
especially if it was a colt.
 
i fail to understand how the woodsman couldn't be made profitable. there are lots of target shooters out there.
rugers are really plinkers n require lots of mods to be made good. a target gun from the factory that shot like a target gun out of the box would sell.
especially if it was a colt.

The offerings from Browning and Ruger make for extremely tough competition in both price and quality (due to their designs) where most .22 pistols are sold.

There are all flavors of Woodsmen pistols. A standard Woodsman would not out-shoot a Browning Buckmark for instance. Most were not target level pistols. When it comes to bullseye target pistols, S&W and others become tough competitors too -- in a comparatively tiny market.
 
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Would somebody please explain why the King Cobra and Anaconda platforms would NOT be profitable? Seems like they could be priced at the same level (or slightly higher) than comparative Ruger and Smith products. They aren't Pythons...

I think looking at what Ron Coburn successfully did when he took over Savage Arms might give some insight into what Colt might have been trying to do.

Savage was on its backside financially when Coburn took over. Running out of time and money he immediately trimmed from nearly a dozen product lines to one product -- their centerfire bolt action rifle.

That allowed Savage to greatly reduce costs and to focus on one product. Then the rebuilding started on other product lines. One has to wonder where Colt would be today had it hired someone like Coburn and given him the authority to do what he did at Savage (and not looted the company in the process of course)?

Savage had been floundering for years before Coburn came along. It continued to flounder until he finally left and then returned as CEO...
 
Susie,
The Woodsman is a design from a long time ago, built around labor-intensive methods, of solid steel.
There were different grades.

Today, a "lower" grade Woodsman would not out-shoot a Ruger or Browning.
A higher grade Woodsman would be risky in trying to compete pricewise in the market, even with CNC.

Donnelly at USFA was planning to bring the Woodsman back (even bought the name) for over three years.
He never pulled it off.

I seriously doubt a Woodsman from Colt, done in original forged/milled steel form, would sell well.
Done in a "Woodsman II" format, with alloy, MIM, plastic, and so on, it'd have a hard go against Ruger & Browning. Even against Hi-Standard, with their target-grade pistols. :)

Denis
 
Regarding the possibility that old Colt information still exists in a library or some similar place:

My Dad served aboard a Navy LST which was built in 1945, at a shipyard in central Illinois (Seneca). When he took me there in the late 1950's, the yard was closed and abandoned. At some point, the company (Chicago Bridge and Iron) which built the ships was merged into another corporation and the archives seemed to have disappeared.

When I went to that area a few years ago for my annual LEOSA qualification, I stopped at the Seneca library and discovered they are a treasure trove of information- at some point, the ship company gave them all of the old records, photographs, newsletters, etc. They have a good sample in the library itself, and I was told they have an entire room of paperwork offsite, that a volunteer is slowly organizing.

There may still be hope...
 
Regarding the possibility that old Colt information still exists in a library or some similar place:

Colt's collection of historical documents and shipping records were donated to the CT. State Library some years ago.
 
Colt's collection of historical documents and shipping records were donated to the CT. State Library some years ago.
Well this seems to answer that little debate ... Now back to waiting for more substantive information from the bankruptcy proceedings.
 
As for bringing back "legacy" models, they wouldn't even without that debt structure.
An unprofitable line back then would still be an unprofitable line today, with or without debt.

I could see these hand polished and fitted weapons once again being highly desirable and profitable. Of course, not made by Americans in America.

They'd have to be made in Asia somewhere where the cost of labor is reasonable for manual labor.

Rock Island dropped the price of a good entry 1911 in half by using Philippine labor. I'm sure the same can be done with wheel guns.
 
Well this seems to answer that little debate ... Now back to waiting for more substantive information from the bankruptcy proceedings.

Not really. The donation was made principally in 1959. Colt wouldn't have been disposing of engineering drawings and a lot of other data for a lot of firearms back then which are now out of production.

It would be very interesting to see the list of assets that backs Morgan's lifeline loan...
 
The Florida expansion facility deal for Colt is off the table. The state/county stakeholders gave up waiting on Colt to make it happen after several years. The site is being repurposed.
 
I could see these hand polished and fitted weapons once again being highly desirable and profitable. Of course, not made by Americans in America.

They'd have to be made in Asia somewhere where the cost of labor is reasonable for manual labor.

Rock Island dropped the price of a good entry 1911 in half by using Philippine labor. I'm sure the same can be done with wheel guns.

Armscor/RI makes revolvers that, with some polish, can pass as late-model Colts. This could be a possibility....
 
Those could only pass as late model Colts among people who don't know late model Colts. :)
Denis
 
Those could only pass as late model Colts among people who don't know late model Colts

Of course they're is still Mexico and the South American market. Spanish makers did quite well. :evil:

To be more serious... What made a Colt a Colt was the material it was made of, and the quality of the fit and polish, imparted through the hands of highly skilled and experienced workmen who often spent a lifetime doing what they were doing - to perfection. Unfortunately that kind of craftsmanship eventually became too expensive for the mass market.
 
post #222 ....

Post 222 makes a good point.
If you have skilled labor or veteran staffs that know how to crank out well made products that's far better than a huge conglomerate that trys to cut corners or save $$$ at the hands of reduced quality.

This is why I seek out guns that have lifetime warranty offers or Davidsons lifetime plans. If the weapon breaks or fails, they can fix or replace it. ;)

Rusty
 
Old Stuff

Speaking of South America, do you think a company like Taurus would be interested in Colt if the price and financial conditions were right?
 
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