Comparing a S&W revolver made with MIM parts to a revolver made with machined parts

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Aesthetics aside, which one is the more accurate shooter?

Outside of the stated scope of this photo essay.

Regarding the incident in WWII, there are several different versions of it. The way I heard it, the gun in question, a Victory Model, fell to the deck of a warship. It was not clear whether the dead sailor had dropped it himself or if it had fallen many feet to the deck off of the superstructure. It would make a difference as to how far it fell. In any case, the gun fell on its hammer and discharged, killing a sailor.

This is the old style of hammer block that failed. It is a piece of spring steel, peened to a recess in the side plate. The normal position for the hammer block was as seen here, with the 90 degree bend blocking the hammer from falling all the way. There is an arrow pointing to a ramp milled onto the side of the pawl. As the pawl rose, the ramp engaged the tab on the hammer block where the other arrow is pointing.This pushed the hammer block into the recess in the side plate, allowing the hammer to fall all the way. When the trigger returned to the forward position, the spring steel hammer block would pop back up, blocking the hammer again. The evidence seems to be that the movement of the hammer block was restricted, perhaps by a heavy layer of cosmoline, and it was stuck in the retracted position when the gun fell on its hammer.

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Being wartime, the government demanded a quick resolution of the problem. The way I heard it, the engineers at S&W were called in and worked overtime to come up with a solution to the problem. The new hammer block design was arrived at after 48 straight hours of work, and all Smith and Wesson revolvers produced since then have used the new design.



Here are a couple of more photos of the hammer block out of the Model 617. It is clearly a stamped part, as evidenced by the peened over rough edges on the side of the part. The twist marks show where the 90 degree tab was bent up by 90 degrees in a secondary operation. All the modern hammer blocks I have ever examined show this twist. The main body of the part is around .076 thick. The bent tab is a bit thinner, one can see a mark where it was probably struck again to achieve its final shape and thickness. Why not make the part from the MIM process? Stamping is still a very economical way to make parts. Wham, wham, and the part is done. It may need to be hardened afterwards, but that would be a separate step with MIM parts too.

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But we are getting ahead of ourselves. We will be discussing MIM parts later.
 
Back to the business at hand.

Assembly numbers.

Since the early days at Smith and Wesson, as well as most other firearms manufacturers, it was customary for some parts to be hand fitted together. If these parts then needed to be disassembled and sent to another department for hardening or further finishing, assembly numbers would be stamped on the parts so they could be reassembled to the correct frame at a later time.

17911 is the assembly number stamped on the grip frame of this Model 17. In earlier times assembly numbers were stamped on the frame under cylinder crane, but this revolver has its assembly number stamped on the grip frame. The side plate and cylinder assembly share the same assembly number. Notice the other markings stamped on the grip frame. These are inspection marks. At each inspection station, if the parts passed inspection, the inspector would stamp his mark onto the frame.

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Here are some more inspection marks stamped on the other side of the grip frame.

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506 is the assembly number for this Model 617. Stamping has given way to laser engraving.

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I only found one inspection mark stamped anywhere on the Model 617, B5. It seems there may be less inspections done to these revolvers than were done in the old days. Perhaps only one inspection after final assembly. Whether current manufacturing methods justify less inspections I do not know. However it certainly cuts costs to have less inspections.

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There is an interesting side light to this whole hand fitting and assembly numbers business. Of course, hand fitting parts increases costs. Traditionally, the side plate of a Smith and Wesson revolver was a light press fit. It seems to me that if the side plate and the frame both carried the same assembly number, then some amount of hand fitting was involved to make that light press fit, and the assembly numbers were there so the correct side plate could be married back to the correct frame. The fact that the Model 617 frame and side plate carry the same assembly number tells me there was still some expensive hand fitting happening when this revolver was made.

The proper way to remove the side plate, after the screws are removed is to lightly whack the grip frame with the handle of a wooden hammer. This will cause the tight fitting side plate to rise up and disengage from the frame. When I was taking the Model 617 apart I was surprised that the grip frame readily came off of the frame and did not require any hammering of the frame. There was a tiny bit of slop to the fit, perhaps around .001 in the vertical direction. I do not know if all modern stainless Smiths have loose side plates like this one, but this one does. I can only assume that whatever hand fitting was involved in marrying the side plate to the frame resulted in less than the traditional light press fit.
 
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Thank You

I'd like to jump in the pile and thank you for taking the time to create this very interesting thread. I'll be checking for updates regularly.
 
Driftwood, in the early 2000s I has the hammer block fail on two early MIM guns. I later read a claim that S&W went to MIM for a short period with these, then reverted to the old method. I've seen no other evidence and am not a metallurgist, so make of this what you will.
 
Hi, Radagast,

I am curious as to how the hammer blocks failed. Ordinarily, the hammer block (unlike a transfer bar) is never touched by the hammer; it just rides up and down. It can only fail if the hammer has been struck hard enough to crush the rebound slide and/or shear the hammer stud.

Jim
 
Jim, its been over a decade, so my recall is dim and I am not mechanically minded. best I can recall is one had snapped near the loop, the twist end was somewhat flattened. Faulty bar stock? Faulty MIM? I've no clue. I took it in to the S&W importer and he replaced the broken part under warranty. Same with the second gun. I was only interested in making them go bang back then, so I didn't find out anything more. Both guns were pre-lock, firing pin in frame and purchased new.
I will shut up now as this is thread drift and I don't want this one to derail.
 
I know Ruger has had some problems with MIM Transfer Bars breaking.

But, I have never ever heard of a modern style S&W hammer block breaking after they started using them during WWII.

As Jim K said, they are never ever under any kind of stress unless you drop the gun on the hammer from quite a ways.
Even then, not much real stress that would be likely to break one.

Let alone two in a row.

Anyway, a broken S&W hammer block will not disable the gun or keep it from firing.
It just won't be quite as 100% drop safe.

A broken Ruger or other brand transfer bar totally puts the gun out of commission.

You sure they weren't Rugers or last go-around Colts??

rc
 
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Jim K said: (Post 2) “The frame stud on the old guns was pressed in from the outside and staked. (The inside is smaller than the outside.) The problem in assembly was that double curve, because it not only had to retain the cylinder, it had to miss the cartridge heads. It was installed, then checked with a gauge and hand filed if necessary.”

Just as an FYI, I have a 1977 model 37 no dash that someone apparently let slip through. The cylinder has to be positioned so the frame stud is between the cases or one case will bind on the stud and not eject.

And keep up the good education. I'm all ears.
 
Well, you said:
I was only interested in making them go bang back then,
So, I assumed they stopped going bang, or you wouldn't have known they were broke?

What exactly happens when a S&W hammer block safety breaks?

I have never in my life seen a broken one.
(Let alone two in a row.)

rc
 
Howdy Again

Time to talk about frames. Here is a photo of both revolvers stripped of all components. Except the rear sights. To tell you the truth, I forgot to take off the rear sights, I was more intent on the guts of the guns. No matter, the rear sights are identical on both guns, the standard micrometer click rear sight that S&W has been putting on their target revolvers since the early 1940s. I also did not disassemble anything that was pinned together at the factory, I never do. So the extractor rod latches under the barrels are still in place, as are the front sight blades. Of course I was not going to drive the pin out of the barrel of the Model 17 and remove it. Sharp eyes will notice the Model 617 barrel is unpinned. I left the strain screws in place on both guns, just a precaution against losing them.


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I took a tour of the Smith and Wesson factory three or four years ago. At the time, the old hammer forges were still in operation, I assume they are still in use today. S&W has always forged their frames, rather than using Investment Casting technology the way Ruger does. The hammer forges are huge machines with a solid bed and a heavy 'hammer' that drops straight down onto the work piece. One 'mold' is mounted on the bed of the machine, and another mold is mounted to the hammer. A hot blank of round stock is placed on the mold on the bed, and the hammer then strikes the blank with tremendous force, causing the metal to flow into shape between the two molds. This process not only reshapes the metal, but causes the internal grain structure to reorient itself to the new shape of the part. Reorienting the grain adds to the strength of the part. Forged parts are not finished parts, there is a great deal of work that has to happen to finish the parts. The forgings are placed on another machine that stamps away most of the extra metal around the perimeter of the part. Then the parts are ready for further processing.

The day I visited the factory, there were bins and bins full of forgings for the huge frames for the 50 caliber revolvers. They were ready to move onto the next steps.

After forging and trimming, the frames roughly resemble the finished parts, but there is still a great deal of precision machining to be done to finish the parts.

I think this would be an appropriate time to bring CNC machining into the discussion. Computer Numerical Control (CNC) is the name given to the process that is used to control automated machine tools, as opposed to controlling equipment manually through the use of hand wheels and cranks. The advantages of CNC are accuracy, repeatability, and the equipment's ability to run continuously for long periods of time. This last attribute means that fewer operators are needed with CNC dominated shops than with manually operated equipment, cutting down on labor costs. One CNC program can perform many operations while the workpiece is on the machine, rather than moving the workpiece from machine to machine, each manually operated and set up to perform a single, specific operation. CNC equipment can also generate complex tool paths impossible to produce on conventional hand operated milling equipment.

But there are also disadvantages with CNC equipment. One is high initial investment cost. Accuracy can only be maintained on CNC equipment as long as the components are in good physical condition and there is no significant wear, no different than hand operated conventional equipment. Dull or worn tools will also cause accuracy to suffer. And it is always possible for an operator to push the wrong button, or fail to align a workpiece properly on a jig or fixture.

The point is, the layman often thinks that CNC is the end all of manufacturing equipment and can do anything. The reality is there are limits to what CNC can do.

My own experience with CNC goes back to the 1980s when I was programming and operating a pair of ancient CNC Bridgeports that had been manufactured in the late 1960s. These machines were from the punched paper tape era. I was programming using a dedicated CNC programming language, then running the program through a paper punch machine to create the punched tape which I fed into the machines. Later we modernized a bit and I was using floppy disks.


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As I have said earlier, this Model 17-3 was made in 1975. I do not know when S&W first started using CNC, but the beautiful semi-circular tool path around the hammer stud tells me the main cavity of this frame was machined out on CNC equipment. A lot has been written about the lack of quality in the Bangor Punta days, but the machining on this frame is nothing short of exquisite.

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I was surprised by the quality of the machining inside the 617 frame. Really first rate. There is a circular, slightly raised surface around the hammer stud that serves as the bearing surface for the hammer. There is also a slightly raised area around the trigger stud and the cylinder stop stud that serves as the bearing surface for these two parts. On the Model 17, the studs themselves have larger diameter bosses standing slightly proud of the floor that serve as bearing surfaces. So the studs of the Model 17 would have been more expensive to make than the straight studs of the Model 617. Notice too that the Model 17 studs are rounded on top, as opposed to the Model 617 studs being flat on top. Again, less expensive to make.

Yes, I left the lock components in the frame of the 617. I did remove the 'flag', but not having the 'key' to reposition the lock, I chose instead to leave the lock parts in place and I popped the flag back in position. Yes, the flag is a MIM part, we will talk about MIM later. The little stud projecting up from the surface of the flag engages features on the hammer to lock the gun. Incidentally, there is a tiny torsion spring on the underside of the flag, keeping it normally in the unlocked position. I know plenty of testing has been done with the lock, and it is very reliable, but it would not take much to mash that little spring and, in my opinion, make the lock unreliable. But messing with it would probably void the warranty anyway.

By the way, yes, the reason for the slightly different shape of the Model 617 frame in the hammer area is to provide room for the lock parts.

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Here is a closeup of the tool path around the hammer stud of the Model 17. Notice how even the spacing is between adjacent swirls left behind by the endmill, indicating the constant feedrate of a CNC machine.


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This closeup of the machining on the Model 617 frame reveals the closely spaced tool marks left behind by the endmill. With CNC equipment it is possible to program a finishing pass, usually a very light cut, sometimes at a slower feed rate, that leaves a very fine finish behind. I suspect this was done with the 617 frame.

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After final machining parts would have been placed in a vibratory tumbler, like a giant version of the tumblers reloaders use to polish their brass. I saw one of these tumblers working while I visited the S&W factory. They used conical ceramic beads to polish the parts. The longer the parts stay in the tumbler, the smoother they get. I suspect part of the lack of tooling marks on the 617 frame is due to a good soak in the tumblers.


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So how were frames machined before CNC?

No discussion of CNC machining would be complete without mentioning the pattern following equipment that preceded it. Pattern following machinery made possible repeatable, complex, precise machining. Pattern following equipment used a stylus to follow a pattern. The operator manipulated handles which kept the stylus pressed against the pattern. The workpiece was fastened to a table and as the operator manipulated the handles, the workpiece moved past the cutter, duplicating the shape of the pattern. The precision of parts made on pattern following equipment often depended on the skill of the operator. The development of pattern following equipment goes as far back as the 1840s, developed at the Robbins and Lawrence Armory in Windsor, Vermont. Smith and Wesson was one of many Connecticut Valley manufacturing firms to pioneer the use of pattern following equipment to mass produce precision parts, right up until the age of CNC.

Here is the frame of a K-38 made in the late 1940s. This frame would have been hogged out on a pattern following miller. Yes, the surface is rough, but it is flat. I have seen better examples of frames made before CNC, I chose this one because the manually generated tool paths can be easily seen.


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The frame of this little 32 caliber Tip Up was machined out in the 1870s using pattern following equipment. The point is, all that rough surface of the 1940s K-38 was clearance area. No moving parts, other than the rebound slide, touched that rough surface. The lip that surrounds the side plate would have been done as a later operation, also on a pattern following machine, but probably with a finer touch.


framemachining.jpg



Here are a couple of interesting photos. The first is of the grip frame of the Model 17. Notice the diagonal chatter marks. To me, that indicates that this portion of the frame was hogged out in a separate operation, with a rotary tool that was spinning on an axis parallel to the chatter marks.

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The 617 frame has no chatter marks on the grip frame area. I suspect that is because this area of the frame was machined away with an end mill while the frame was on the CNC machine for the milling of the main frame cavity, not done on a separate machine with a separate set up the way the Model 17 frame was. More cost savings.

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I think the circular marking around the hammer stud is due not to machining around the stud but to the hole for the stud and the area around it being milled/drilled at the same time.

Parts are tumbled not so much to polish them but to remove machining burrs. One shortcut taken by FEG (the Hungarian company) was skipping the tumbling, increasing sales for Band Aids among gunsmiths and hobbyists who worked on those guns.

Jim
 
SIG did it too apparently, when they first started making SIG's in the USA!

I cut my right thumb to the bone showing a guy how easy it was to field strip a P-226 he just brought from the LGS.

That sucker was razor sharp on every edge that could be left sharp on when you took the slide off!!!!

rc
 
Thanks Jim K for correcting me about tumbling.

I mispoke, I know that parts are tumbled after machining to deburr them. I have put enough parts in a tumbler myself to know that. What I meant to say is, I suspect during the deburring process the surface of the frame got polished enough to remove most of the milling marks left behind by the endmills. Although I could be wrong about the surface of the grip frame. There are still light, residual tooling marks on the floor of the cavity in the frame where the lockwork goes. There are no tooling marks at all left on the surface of the grip frame, so there may be another reason for the lack of tooling marks there. The marks may simply have been polished away.

By the way, when I took the rubber grips off the 617 the first time, there were small spots of rust on the surface or the grip frame that had been covered up by the grip. The tiny dark spots on the flat surface at the rear of the grip frame are residual dark rust spots. I do not know the specific Stainless alloy that S&W uses, but those rust spots are why Stainless steel is often referred to as Corrosion Resistant steel. It is not really stainless, it can corrode under the right circumstances. Probably tiny amounts of moisture sandwiched between the rubber and the steel caused the rust.
 
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Firing Pins

The frame mounted firing pin and its rebound spring of the Model 17 are held in place by a pin through the frame. The pin is a press fit as are all the pins on the Model 17. This is one of those pinned assemblies I chose not to disassemble. The firing pin can be seen in this photo, it is reflecting the red fabric I used as a backdrop, it is not really red. Its retaining pin is visible on the side of the frame.

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The firing pin and its rebound spring of the Model 617 are also held in place by a pin, but the retaining pin is not a press fit as on the Model 17. The pin is a loose fit. The end of the retaining pin sits a little bit above the surface where its hole is. I was able to remove it with a pair of tweezers. After removing the retaining pin the firing pin and its spring could be pushed out of the frame. The firing pin is a machined part, not MIM. The retaining pin fits into the recess milled on the side of the firing pin. The recess is long enough to allow the firing pin to travel forward to fire a cartridge, then when the lockwork recycles the spring drives the firing pin back again. I suspect if I removed the firing pin from the Model 17 I would find a similar arrangement.

This slip fit retaining pin is another cost savings of the 617 design. No tight fit needed on the pin, everything can be easily popped in place with the fingers, no extra time needed to drive in the pin with a tool. When the side plate is put back in place, the retaining pin is captured by the recess on the underside of the side plate that I mentioned earlier. The side plate contour comes up a little bit higher on the Model 617 than on the Model 17, in order to capture the pin. Very clever engineering, simple to execute with some new code to form the shapes of the side plate and its seat. A little bit of new code and a looser pin fit makes the firing pin assembly simpler and less costly than a pinned assembly without any extra parts.

firingpinassembly617_zps5a844e94.jpg
 
Just for fun, here are photos of the two revolvers completely torn down with all their parts laid out. See if you can spot a few subtle differences between the two guns. No, the full lug barrel and ten shot cylinder of the 617 do not count. Nothing subtle about them.

First, the Model 17.

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And the Model 617.

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Now lets get into the guts of the guns.

These four photos show the lockworks of the two revolvers, the blued Model 17 first, then the Stainless Model 617. I have left the hammer blocks in position on both guns in the uncocked photos, I have removed the hammer blocks for a little bit more clarity in the cocked photos.

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In these two photos we can identify the MIM part assemblies in the Model 617. Hammer, cylinder bolt (partially obscured), rebound slide, trigger, and cylinder stop. The thumbpiece is also a MIM part but it is on the other side of the frame, not visible in this photo.

I think it is important to note that while the technology for making these parts has changed, the lockwork itself and how it works is still basically the same as it was when the Military and Police Model of 1905 revolvers were first made.

lockworkmodel61702enhanced_zpsf26c0b09.jpg

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Driftwood Johnson

Outstanding photo essay; one of the best I have ever seen! Looking forward to the next installment of insightful commentary and great pictures!
 
Very interesting thread! Contrary to expectations, those pics have actually given me a lot more respect for the quality of current S&W revolvers.
 
Thanks for all the kind comments. Yes, there is more to come.

Very interesting thread! Contrary to expectations, those pics have actually given me a lot more respect for the quality of current S&W revolvers.

Bear in mind that the 617 in the photos was made in 2003. I have absolutely no idea about the quality of what S&W is making today. Could be just as good, could be better, could be worse. I have no idea.

And no, I have no intention of buying another 'new' Smith to find out. This one will probably wind up being the only MIM/Lock Smith and Wesson that I own.
 
Another difference between the two guns that jumps out at me is the 'ledge', or rib that is milled into the frame of the Stainless gun.
Interestingly enough, I'm sitting here looking at a Colt New Service made in 1906 and it has a ledge, not an inserted stud.
 
Howdy Vern

So does my New Service of about the same vintage, and a couple of Police Positives too. But correct me if I am wrong that the ledge on the Colts is an integral part of the side plate, the side plate being on the opposite side on a Colt than on a Smith.

Nothing new with the idea of a ledge rather than a stud. But the point I was making on this thread is that by milling a ledge onto the frame, Smith and Wesson eliminated one extra part, mainly the stud, and they eliminated several operations; pressing the stud in place, staking it, and shaping it so it did its job properly. That represented a significant design change, in my view.

In this photo, the arrow points to the base of the stud. You can see the displaced metal caused when the stud was staked into place, from the outside, as was pointed out by Jim K.

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Since Vern Humphrey has brought Colt into the picture maybe we should also credit them with the hammer-block safety that Smith & Wesson copied and incorporated in 1945 and is still used today.

Colt developed and incorporated it as early as 1905. :what: ;)

All the engineers at S&W did was modify the Colt system to work with their style of lockwork. Even so it was an important development - especially during wartime. Colt could have said something but they didn't utter a peep.
 
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