Comparing a S&W revolver made with MIM parts to a revolver made with machined parts

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Howdy Vern

So does my New Service of about the same vintage, and a couple of Police Positives too. But correct me if I am wrong that the ledge on the Colts is an integral part of the side plate, the side plate being on the opposite side on a Colt than on a Smith.
Colt cylinders rotate clockwise, as seen from a shooting stance, and S&Ws rotate counter-clockwise. But both swing out to the left, so both have the stud or ledge on the left side.

Nothing new with the idea of a ledge rather than a stud. But the point I was making on this thread is that by milling a ledge onto the frame, Smith and Wesson eliminated one extra part, mainly the stud, and they eliminated several operations; pressing the stud in place, staking it, and shaping it so it did its job properly. That represented a significant design change, in my view.
Indeed they did -- but Colt was doing it 80 years earlier.
 
There is quite a bit of difference between the Colt "positive" safety and the S&W hammer block. For one thing it is the way they are actuated - the S&W by the rebound slide, the Colt by the trigger. The S&W block is a simple piece of stamped and twisted steel. The Colt safety involves two machined parts and a frame cut-out, in addition to a stud on the trigger. But they do the same thing. The old S&W hammer blocks (there were two types prior to the current one), were spring actuated, and so were not "positive", a point Colt made much of by including the word "positive" in the names of some of its revolvers.

Jim
 
Really good thread, love this stuff.

It's very interesting to see them completely torn down, it demonstrates just how simplistic, but yet ingenious the designs really are.

GS
 
For those who have persevered this long, let's finally get to discussing MIM parts. Metal Injection Molding (MIM) is a relatively new process for the fabrication of metal parts. First developed in the 1970s, MIM was patented by Dr. Raymond E. Wiech Jr. It came into widespread industrial use in the 1980s.

In some ways, MIM is not a whole lot different than the standard plastic injection molding process, where heated plastic is forced under pressure into a mold, solidifying as the plastic cools. As a matter of fact, modified plastic injection molding equipment is usually used to produce MIM parts. The difference is how the MIM material is created, and how the parts are processed once they come out of the mold.

The MIM process starts by mixing finely powdered metal with a binder material, usually some sort of resin. The ratio is usually about 80% powdered metal to 20% binder. The resulting material is then heated so it will flow and injected under pressure into a mold inside the injection molding equipment. When the part cools it is ejected from the mold. At this stage the part is called 'green' meaning it has just popped out of the mold, and still consists of a matrix of metal powder and binder. The next step in the process is to drive out most of the binder material through a combination of solvents, heat, and/or catalytic processes. The result is called a 'brown' part. At this stage the part is porous because most of the binder was driven out, and it is very fragile. Finally, the brown parts are sintered, meaning they are placed in a furnace and heated to just below the melting temperature of the specific metal in the mix. This causes the surfaces of the individual particles of powdered metal to bind together. The part does not melt as one might picture happening in a die casting process, instead the individual particles of powdered metal bind to each other. When the part is sintered, it shrinks about 14% - 18% as the metal particles close up the gaps between them left behind when the binder was driven out. At this point, the finished part is 96% - 99% solid.

It sounds like a very complicated process, but MIM vendors have gotten it down to a science and produce huge quantities of MIM parts. The trick is they can produce small, detailed parts very quickly, and very inexpensively. Much cheaper than more traditional processes. MIM parts can then be plated, passivated, annealed, or carburized (case hardened). MIM parts can also be machined further if needed.

MIM is best suited to relatively small parts, because of current limitations in the size of molds in injection molding equipment, and because of the flow characteristics of the material in the molding process. But many parts can be molded in one 'shot'.

As for strength, it is claimed that MIM parts can be just as strong as parts made of similar materials by traditional methods. I do not know about that, but I had a conversation a few years ago with an engineer at S&W who was instrumental in introducing MIM parts. He said that their tests had proven that the MIM parts they were using were plenty strong enough for their specific applications.

MIM parts are usually designed on 3D CAD (Computer Aided Design). The part can have as much detail as any other molded part that will still pop out of a mold. Because the parts are designed on CAD, the shrinkage factor can be factored in so the finished part will meet dimensional specifications.

I hope I don't sound like too much of a cheerleader for MIM parts, because nobody admires a beautifully machined part more than I. But the cost savings of using MIM parts is what has driven S&W to using them.


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In the next photo, the traditional hammer assembly from the Model 17 is on the left, its MIM counterpart from the Model 617 is on the right. In accordance with my normal procedure, I have not further disassembled the hammer assembly on the Model 17. The Model 17 Hammer assembly consists of three parts; the hammer, the double action sear (the hinged piece protruding from the front of the hammer), and the stirrup which engages the main spring. The stirrup in turn consists of two parts, the flat, oval plate and a pin through it that engages the hooked end of the mainspring. The double action sear and the stirrup are pinned to the hammer, so that they are free to rotate. There is also a spring hidden inside the hammer which pushes the double action sear to the forward position as it is seen here. Obviously, from an assembly standpoint the hammer assembly requires some skill to assemble, and the time to drive in the two pins.

The MIM hammer assembly is also made of three parts. The stirrup is a single piece. It slips into the claw shaped receptacle at the rear of the hammer. It only fits in one way, it took me a little while to figure that out, but an experienced assembler could probably pop it into place in seconds. The double action sear is also a separate piece, but it is more easily seen from the other side. However in this view we can see the spring for the double action sear. While we are still looking at this side, notice the two odd shaped recesses coming off the top of the curved slot. Those are the recesses that capture the stud on the lock flag to lock up the gun.

hammers02_zpsffc6b6e3.jpg




On the other side of the assembly we see how the double action sear nestles in a pocket in the hammer. There is no pin it rotates around, the geometry is very cleverly designed, the double action sear simply rocks back in its pocket when the trigger is released. The 'open pocket' allows the assembler to compress the spring and simply drop the double action sear into its position, no pinning is necessary.

Regarding the hollows present on both sides of the hammer, the best I can figure is material was 'removed' where it is not necessary without affecting the strength of the part. Kind of like a girder with a thick section at the top and bottom and a thin web in between. Why make the hammer this way? Because less metal is required, driving down cost slightly.

hammers01_zps9a1df120.jpg




From this angle we can see the parting line (the line indicating where the two halves of the mold separated) on the back side of the hammer.

There is one more detail visible in this view. There is a slight countersink around the hammer pivot hole. Remember when I mentioned the studs in the frame of the 617 are flat topped, rather than rounded? The rounded ends of the older studs makes it simpler to guide the hammer onto its stud. Assembling the hammer one is pulling the trigger back with one hand, holding the thumbpiece back with the other hand, and attempting to position the hammer onto its stud with still another hand. The rounded studs make this a bit easier. Here, the opposite strategy has been employed. The countersink at the pivot hole helps line up the hammer on the flat topped stud and guide it into place. It is still just as fussy to mount the MIM hammer as it was to mount the older one, but both parts have a different solution to help guide it on.

hammers03_zps0d2e981c.jpg

I really have no idea of the comparative costs to make up the two different hammer assemblies, other than to know the MIM parts are less expensive. But it is also interesting to see that the MIM part is simpler (cheaper) to assemble.
 
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Great stuff! I appreciate what you're doing here and the work you've put into it. Thanks much.
 
You have a great thread here Driftwood. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to bring it to us.

I've especially enjoyed the portions concerning the various machining processes.

Prior to this thread I never really gave much thought as to how a gun manufacturer hallowed out the cavity in the frames.
 
I love the in-depth photos and now have a better understanding of why pistolsmiths think so highly of the new MIM action parts in S&W revolvers
 
I love the in-depth photos and now have a better understanding of why pistolsmiths think so highly of the new MIM action parts in S&W revolvers

Some do, and some don't, but anyway after the company decided to incorporate the lock it became obvious that machining the hammer to accommodate the new device would be prohibitively expensive, and they were left with a choice between investment casting or MIM. After looking at the two options they chose MIM.

While the new parts are made to closer tolerances, they are not as close as what skilled and experienced assemblers could accomplish by selectively picking parts - if they were allowed the time to do it.

In an era where controlling costs were, and is, the most important consideration the "old way" was obviously not viable.

This is a great thread so far as it goes, but to see what the company could really do relative to fine marching we need to look at 1905 through 1941.
 
This is a great thread so far as it goes, but to see what the company could really do relative to fine marching we need to look at 1905 through 1941.

As I have stated several times, that is beyond the scope I intended for this thread. I have a fairly sizable collection of S&W revolvers, and perhaps in the future I will do just that. But for now, please except my original stated goal of comparing how a revolver was made in 1975 to how one was made in 2003.

If somebody else wants to tear apart their revolvers and do a photo essay, be my guest. But please start your own thread, don't tag it onto this one.

By the way, I hope nobody has gotten the idea that I am in love with the MIM/Lock revolvers. I only own the one, and it was kind of a fluke that I bought it. I certainly do not intend to buy any more, I too far prefer the prewar Smiths. But I thought my 17-3 and my 617-6 were perfect candidates for such a comparison. At the conclusion of this thread I hope to make some remarks concerning my personal opinions on which revolver I like better.
 
after the company decided to incorporate the lock
Trouble with that is, they changed to MIM parts well before the lock came along.

They changed to MIM hammers & triggers when they did away with the hammer mounted firing pins.
Or maybe they changed to frame mounted firing pins and then then changed to MIM parts??
Chicken or the egg thing??

But it had nothing to do with the later lock.

rc
 
I have a couple of 45 ACP revolvers, a Model 25-2 and a converted M28-2. My brother has a Model 22-4 and a 1917. Perhaps, I can get them all together and see the differences. If so, that will be a separate thread.
 
They changed to MIM hammers & triggers when they did away with the hammer mounted firing pins.
Or maybe they changed to frame mounted firing pins and then then changed to MIM parts??
Chicken or the egg thing??

All the same thing.
As I understand it, they changed to the frame firing pin when they went to MIM lockwork because they could not mold in the slot for the hammer nose (firing pin) and hole for the hammer nose rivet. A mold for intersecting holes is not feasible and a cavity in the plane of the part not much easier. The MIM hammer doesn't have a slot for the DA sear or the mainspring stirrup, either.
 
Cylinder Bolts

As an aside, for the most part I am using the same terms Jerry Kuhnhausen uses in his excellent S&W Revolver Shop Manual to describe the parts in this photo essay. I heartily recommend this book to anyone who is interested in doing a bit of further reading on how a S&W double action revolver works. These names can sometimes be confusing, like Cylinder Bolt. This is the part that is attached to the thumbpiece. When you push the thumbpiece forward, the pin at the end of the piece disengages the extractor rod from the frame, allowing the cylinder to open. At the rear of the Cylinder Bolt is the Hammer Interrupter or Hammer Stop. This is what prevents the hammer from moving when the cylinder is open.

Here is a photo of the cylinder bolts and their associated springs and plungers from both revolvers, the Model 17 on the left and the 617 on the right. Notice how much longer the spring and plunger are for the older gun. I'm not really sure why, but they are. The circular marks on the MIM part (on the right) are the locations where the ejector pins eject the part from the mold.

cylinderbolts_zps04cbb0fe.jpg



In the next photo, the positions of the parts have been reversed. The MIM part from the 617 is on the left. If you look carefully, the worn spot at the end of the MIM part shows the parting line where the two halves of the mold separated.

cylinderbolts04_zps2fcbbf2a.jpg



The MIM part is one single piece. The older part is a fabricated part. The pin at the end of the part (Kuhnhausen calls it the Pivot) is a separate part pressed into the body of the part. In this view we can see the hole that it was pressed into. The threaded stud that receives the nut for the thumbpiece is also a separate piece, pressed into a hole in the main part. The main body has been machined down after the stud was pressed in place, but if we look carefully we can see the end of the stud pressed into the body of the part.

cylinderboltmodel17_zps1126512f.jpg



Here is an end view of the two parts. Notice that the portion of the part where the pin has been pressed in is rectangular, to allow enough material to securely hold the pin. Because the 'pin' on the MIM part is not a separate part, there is no need for supporting material around it, hence the different shape. Don't be confused by the red color, it is only a reflection of the fabric the parts were sitting on. Look carefully and you can see the parting line on the MIM part. The threads on the MIM part were probably cast onto the part, not cut in a separate operation. MIM technology is capable of casting on threads like that. I suspect the reason the threads are interrupted is to make the part eject from the mold more easily. Just a guess.

cylinderbolts03_zps679ec6e8.jpg



Here is an end view of the 'hammer interrupter' of the two parts. The holes are for the springs and plungers. I am pretty sure these have been drilled, not cast into the MIM part. The hole is probably too straight and narrow to cast in, plus casting it in would make the mold much more complicated. The parting line is clearly visible here too.

cylinderbolts04partingline_zpsed2a74b0.jpg



Last photo of the Cylinder Bolt. This shows an alignment feature cast into the MIM part. I believe the small cross on the face of the part is an alignment feature to help align the thumbpiece during assembly. Notice how it matches the slots cut into the MIM thumbpiece. I messed with this a bit, this feature does not provide precision alignment, but it does help line up the parts for assembly. The parting line is very visible in this photo.

cylinderbolts02_zps29f226fd.jpg
 
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On the MIM hammer, I think that little rectangular hole in front of the pivot hole is used to insert a tool to hold the spring in place while slipping the DA sear into its slot. Just another way they used MIM to speed up assembly.

I have to disagree on the Model 17 hammer assembly parts count. There is the hammer, the sear, the stirrup flat, the stirrup cross pin, the sear spring and two pins, making 7 parts, not three. The MIM hammer assembly has four, but two holes don't need to be drilled and two pins don't need to be made and installed.

Jim
 
What is the little tab the protrudes from the back of the trigger guard opening on the Model 17-3? Apparently it makes contact with the back of the trigger at its rearmost travel. Photos in posts #37 and #43 show it quite clearly including an apparent pivot screw on the 17-3 that was not removed.

It's totally missing from the pictured 617, but present on my own 617. It's missing from my 586 and 686 but the 586 has a slot for it while the 686 does not. The three guns are all pre-MIM.

I've not been able to find a discussion of it in Kuhnhausen's book, though it does appear in several parts diagrams.
 
The tab that "makes contact with the back of the trigger at its rearmost travel" is the trigger stop, meant to prevent overtravel after the hammer drops.

S&W policy has been to omit it from "service revolvers" but to leave it in "target revolvers". They are not real consistent in this, as your examples show.
 
It is an overtravel stop; it is set up so the trigger can move only enough to free the hammer. It is an aid to accuracy; S&W normally put them target revolvers like the K-22 shown, but occasionally they show up on other revolvers as well, possibly on special order. They had a problem; if they got loose or were improperly adjusted, they could stop the revolver from firing in SA mode. As a result, many owners removed them or filed them down, deactivating them. At one point, S&W cut all the frames for it, but didn't install it on service gun frames. Later, they did away with it altogether, and put an overtravel stop pin inside the rebound slide spring.

Jim
 
You can see in the bottom picture in Post #42

Well, there it is.
They used a rod inside the rebound spring in a lot of N frames.
Seems like it would take a lot of fiddling to get it just the right length unless there was a fit measurement they could take.
 
Have no fear, I have already taken photos of the 'trigger stop' on the Model 617, as well as on the Model 17. I will have comments on each of them. Just be patient, I will get to it.
 
Have no fear, I have already taken photos of the 'trigger stop' on the Model 617, as well as on the Model 17. I will have comments on each of them. Just be patient, I will get to it.
Yay, good things come to those who wait. :)

On a serious note I am really enjoying this thread and again Driftwood many thanks for all the work and effort.

Ron
 
Thanks for this great thread! Really good pictures and discussions.

I didn't see it mentioned, but do the hammers differ in weight, and do you think that the lock times might be different as a result if they do? The cutouts in the MIM hammer make me suspect it might be lighter.
 
silicosys4 said:
I didn't see it mentioned, but do the hammers differ in weight, and do you think that the lock times might be different as a result if they do? The cutouts in the MIM hammer make me suspect it might be lighter.

I was wondering about this, too, so I weighed the hammers of my 1951 K-22 and my MIM 617. The K-22 hammer is considerably (28%) heavier (37.5 vs 29.3 grams, respectively). This includes the sear, sear spring and stirrup of each hammer assembly.

Since it's a rotating object, and simple mass doesn't tell the whole story, I also measured the center of gravity (CoG) of each. The K-22's CoG was a bit further (7%) from the pivot than the 617.

Between the mass and the CoG, we have enough to calculate relative hammer speeds, power, and momentum.

A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation tells me the 617 hammer travels 17.5% faster (all else being equal), and therefore delivers 17.5% more power, while delivering a bit less (5%) momentum upon hammer strike.

I'm not sure how much of a big deal lock time really is for accuracy. Shorter can only help, though, I suppose. Momentum can hurt accuracy by jarring the muzzle upon hammer strike. Power is good for reliability, but assuming both are factory guns, power should be ample. You could likely lighten the action of the 617 a bit further than the K-22 before getting into reliability issues.

Bottom line is that (assuming equal spring energy) the 617's hammer ought to be a bit quicker and a teensy bit less jarring than the K-22.

I haven't check yet, but given the differences in hammer weights, I'd be curious as to the relative spring strengths of each.
 
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