Comparison of ammo for full size 45 ACP 1911

[Jim Watson]

I know a couple of high end USPSA shooters, one a High Master, the other a Master who have severe flinches. Or jerks or whatever fault.
Thing is, they are so consistent that they gave up on correcting their technique and just set their sights to accommodate. You cannot take one of their guns and hit anything with it, but they are right on.

 

[mikemyers]

Two thoughts - first, regarding flinching, I had it real bad. The more I fought it, the worse it seemed to get. I read in The Pistol Shooter's Treasury that one "cure" is a case of hardball.

Went to the range Monday with a box of Winchester White Box 230 gr ammo and my Les Baer. By the time the box was used up, my flinch was gone, the gun no longer seemed to have any recoil, and the noise was no big deal either. The way I figure it, I just got acclimated to it. After 100 rounds, the gun was no more difficult to shoot than my 22.

The flinch was something *I* was doing/causing, not the gun or the ammo. Once I got to where I no longer cared, it became a non-issue.

 

[mikemyers]

......recoil begins as soon as the gases from the burning propellant begin to expand. The bullet begins it's journey down the barrel. The muzzle begins to rise even before the slide begins to move rearward. The heavier bullet stays in the barrel longer than the lighter bullet......

I will read up on this. Thinking back on it, I shot my two S&W 29's, one with 6" barrel and one with 10 5/8" barrel, and I don't remember the length of the barrel causing me to shoot higher? Maybe that's not a fair comparison, but I also had a Model 41 with both a short and long barrel. There was never a noticeable difference in the height of the group as I switched barrels, and shot at different distances.

Somewhere there was a detailed explanation of what happens when a bullet is fired, and I thought I remember reading that the bullet is out of the gun before the gun reacts. Unless the gun is clamped in a "vice", it seems like it would move straight back first, and then when there is resistance from the shooter's hand, it would move upwards.

More research to do......

 

[mikemyers]

.......my thing is to anticipate the shot and push into it, the muzzle dips slightly as a result. Takes mental effort to avoid it.......

The advice I was given, was to just accept the recoil, and not fight it. Shoot over and over again, with no attempt to shoot well, just to get your body and mind used to the noise and recoil. This sounded silly to me a year or so ago, but having tried it, it works. Once you're used to what happens, there's no more tendency or need to anticipate anything, any more than how you might anticipate how your body reacts each time one foot or the other takes a step forward. I'm sure what I'm writing here will sound as silly to everyone reading it now, as it did to me long ago, but give it a try - all it will cost you is a box of ammo, preferably something strong like "hardball".

Four weeks ago, my 1911 with 230 gr ammo felt "powerful". Now it's no big deal. Honestly. Weeks ago, I was blinking every time the gun fired. No more. With time, one can get used to just about anything.

 

[Malamute]

You wont see a difference in different length barrels because theya re all sighted with their own sights. Often, longer barrel revolvers have taller front sights, and Smith makes several different rear sight heights also.

If you lay a straight edge on top of your revolver sights, youll see that the barrel is actually pointing lower than the line of sight. Thats where the part about the gun moving in recoil before the bullet exits the barrel comes into play, and shows up in the sights vs barrel angle.

 

[mikemyers]

This discussion seems to back up what you are saying.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/recoil-of-bullet-passing-through-firearm-barrel.811743/

 

[Malamute]

The difference in angle of sights and barrel are more pronounced in longer barrels and heavier, slower bullets, like 44 spl and 45 Colt in comparison to 357 in the same guns. Ruger makes several different front sight heights for the Blackhawks, depending on barrel length and caliber. If you have a Ruger 45 Colt Blackhawk with 7 1/2" barrel, lay it on a table top upside down on the sights, and get down and look at the angle of the barrel compared to the line of sight represented by the table top. It will show with about any revolver, 4" or longer (hard to see in a 2"), it will be more noticeable with longer barrels and slower loads.

 

[tipoc]

I will read up on this. Thinking back on it, I shot my two S&W 29's, one with 6" barrel and one with 10 5/8" barrel, and I don't remember the length of the barrel causing me to shoot higher? Maybe that's not a fair comparison, but I also had a Model 41 with both a short and long barrel. There was never a noticeable difference in the height of the group as I switched barrels, and shot at different distances.

Somewhere there was a detailed explanation of what happens when a bullet is fired, and I thought I remember reading that the bullet is out of the gun before the gun reacts. Unless the gun is clamped in a "vice", it seems like it would move straight back first, and then when there is resistance from the shooter's hand, it would move upwards.

More research to do......

Mike,

That's a good video. Play it back and at the 10 second point pause it. The bullet has not left the barrel at that point but note what is happening at the breech. There is a discharge of gases and powder residue coming from the breech. This means that the gases from the burning powder have pushed back against the breech. The propellant is moving the bullet forward and obviously recoil has begun. The burning powder produces gases, as we know, and that gas expands at the same rate in all directions, but having really only two ways to go, forward and rearward, it pushes the bullet forward.

How can I say that "obviously recoil has begun" when it doesn't look like the slide has moved at all till later? Because the gases that propel the bullet push the case against the breech face to push the bullet forward. It's this that causes recoil. The gun is designed as a delayed recoil arm which means that the bullet will not leave the barrel before the slide unlocks, but obviously not before recoil begins.

Heavier, slower bullets, all thing being equal, strike higher on the target because they take more time in the barrel. This is generally true. But it is less true in semis due to the action of the slide which absorbs a good deal of the impulse of the recoil. The recoil spring, powder and load all play a factor. It's more visible with a wheelgun.

You mention that you did not notice a bullet striking higher on a target from a 6" barrel rather than a 10 5/8" barrel gun both guns M29s. I assume also the same weight bullets. You won't, especially if both guns are sighted to place the same weight bullet in the same spot at 25 or 50 meters. But take one of those guns and sight it in for a bullet weighing 180 grs at the same distances, say 25 or 50 meters, and shoot enough to get a decent group. Now without changing the sights load a 240 gr. bullet, aim and fire. It should, all things being equal, hit higher.

Play around with this some.

Robert Rinker, "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" Chapter 22.

Thank you for the advice on flinching and anticipating the shot. I got over any physical flinch that I may have had from being anxious about the actual firing process, back in 1973 when I fired a 1911 for the first time. Maybe earlier as a child with my father but I don't recall that. But from then till now I still fight pushing into the shot, my form of anticipating it, sometimes I win and sometimes not. I'm worse at it when tired or impatient.