Comparison of the 250 -3000 Savage and the 6.5 Creedmoor

[whatnickname]

Without any question the 6.5 Creedmoor is one of the better balanced and best performing cartridges that has ever been invented. That said one cannot help but notice the similarities between the dimensions of the 6.5 Creedmoor round and the venerable 250 - 3000 Savage. In just about every respect the two rounds are almost identical in dimensions and yet the gun rags act like Hornady made such an amazing discovery. The real difference between the two rounds is the operating pressure...45000 PSI for the 250 - 3000 Savage compared to 62000 for the 6.5 Creedmoor. Had we done the same thing with the 250 - 3000 I suspect that the result would have been the same given the fact that we have more advanced powders today.

I dare say we could probably best the performance of the 257 Roberts by upping the pressure here and would likely rival the performance of the 25 -06 in doing so. I have to question why. My guess is the same reason we still see some very conservative data for the 6.5X55 and the 7MM Mauser. I suspect that the reasons behind at least some of this lies in consideration for the liability the publisher would incur should these higher pressure rounds end up being used in rifles made up on century old military actions that are generally considered weaker by today's standards. Clearly these two rounds are capable of much better performance than what is shown in the reloading manuals. Indeed some manuals publish higher pressure loads for the 6.5X55 along with a warning that the data is only to be used in modern rifles but even this data is somewhat conservative. Along these lines, I would bet that the reason someone just didn't up the pressure of the 250 - 3000 Savage round was out of concern for the millions of model 99 savages out there that may not ever be able to withstand operating pressures in the 60000 psi range. At the same time I'm sure a good bit of it is marketing along the lines of the old saw that a shorter action is more "ridged" and therefore more accurate...Really now? I've got some old, wheezy, 98 Mauser actions made up into bench rest rifles that I would be glad to have you put to that test. I think those Mauser boys knew a thing or two about what they were doing. At the end of the day, I'm gonna say that we are once again caught up in a bind created by marketing efforts and justified by "safety" concerns. If I had a vote, I would vote for a more realistic updating of these all time classic rounds (250 - 3000, 6.5X55 and the 7MM Mauser) and I would be glad to execute a release of liability in favor of the publishers for doing so. Just my $.02...

 

[CraigC]

The pressure increase is significant but the real difference lies in the twist rate and the available bullets. The Creed has a fast twist and uses bullets up to 140gr with ease. The .250 can utilize 115's but is really in its sweet spot with 100's. Therein lies the difference between an adequate deer/antelope cartridge and an acceptable elk cartridge. I'll also say that we've learned a lot about ballistics, internal, external and terminal and that the 6.5CM is a product of 100yrs of education. Which is why it is a very efficient little package. I'm a big fan of the .250 but wish mine was a 6.5CM.

 

[LoonWulf]

Craig pretty much called it.
I shot both a .250AI and a 6.5CM, the .250s still in my safe.
For my uses the .250ai is completely functional, and a more interesting round (to me).
The CM tho is better at almost everything, just because the tighter twist allows it more bullet options.
The .270 also suffered from a lack of high bc bullets (when compared to other calibers, like the 6.5 and 7mm), we're starting to see more of those now tho.
It would be nice, but probably futile, for companies to start offering 1-8 or even 1-9 twist barrels on there .25s, then we might start seeing more development in heavier .25 Cal bullets.

My loads for the 6.5cm drove 123s to almost 3k and 143s to 2800 from a 22" barrel.

My 250AI drives 115 Bergers at 3100 from a 26" barrel.

I also have a 6-284, and a 6.5-284. The 6 is handicapped the same way as the .250 in that it's built on a 1-10 twist barrel, the 6.5 is a 1-8.
I shoot 95s at 3300 from the 6, and 147s at 2900ish from the 6.5.
For deer size game inside 400, maybe 500 yds, any of them will perform similarly. We're I shooting something larger the 6.5s with thier heavier bullets would win out.

The increase in pressure is available to anyone who handloads, that tho is forgoing your right to complain if you blow yourself up.
While it would be nice to see full power factory loadings for the older underloaded cartridges I doubt it would give them a new lease on life. I doubt many 6.5cm/284/prc/what have you owners, will give up what they have to switch to the 6.5x55. Same goes for 7-08,280, and 7mag owners.
There are also the action sizing issues. All of those are a little to long for short actions and a little to short for long actions. The .257 still suffers from the slow twist rate.....

 

[Ireload2]

Quote ***would likely rival the performance of the 25 -06 in doing so***

Not even close. The .25-06, the .270 Win, and the 6MM Rem are the 3 hottest loaded rounds with a .30-06 head size.
I like the .250 Savage at pressures that give long case life. It will NEVER approach the top ballistics of the .25-06 unless you can load it hot enough to get 3400 fps with a 100 grain bullet and I know you can't....
87 grain bullets go 3600 fps in a .25-06 too.
The .250 Savage is good enough and your barrel will last a lot longer.

You don't need a release of reliability to explore hotter loads. That is a cop out and an admission that you don' t really know what the performance would be.
You are free to load until the primer pockets blow but you might want to wear a full face shield motorcycle helmet and wrap the rifle in a kevlar blanket.

 

[LoonWulf]

My .250 case next to a 6.5cm.....

 

[jmr40]

Shooting bullets with poor BC's faster doesn't make up for high BC bullets. Even if you could get the best 117 gr .257 bullet to leave the muzzle at 3000 fps (and you can in a 25-06) the best 147 gr 6.5mm bullet at 2700 fps out performs it in every way except trajectory. And that is within just a few inches.

I have nothing against the 25's, but we already have way more calibers than we need. For whatever reason manufacturers have made good bullets, and barrels to shoot them in 24, 26, 28, 30, and 33 calibers. I'm sure it would be very much possible to do the same thing in 25, 27, and 32 calibers. But I just don't see the demand.

 

[GooseGestapo]

15yrs ago, no one saw the coming surge in interest in long range competition.
Remington made a tepid attempt at the .260, but got it all wrong by using initially a 1/10” twist (though mine measures 1/11”). 140gr SST’s won’t reliably hit a 100yd berm.

Enter the 6.5Creedmoor.
Initial interest in F-class centered on the .308, and .300mags. Gradually, people tried smaller cartridges and some arrived at the 6.5’s.
Lower powder charges meant lower recoil and less bore erosion. Laser range finders eliminates ranging errors, higher b.c.’s reduce wind drift, and increasing use drives demand for more and better bullets. (not to mention Kestrels and cell phone ballistic apps).
And here we are.

However, curious of the 6.5 mystique, I hunted with a .260 for a season.
140gr bullets indeed penetrate deep, but 120gr bullets expanded better and kill deer quicker. But, no better than a .243, or .257 Roberts.
In fact, I much prefer a 7mm08 to a .260 at any distance.
But that’s just me. I still prefer a .35Rem for dense woods hunting deer. Shorter, wider blood trails. But then again my little Rem M7 in .223 gets it done, as my avatar attests.When I start to liquidate my collection, the .260 and .270 will be the first to go.

Actually I believe the 6.5 is seeing it’s hey day. The 6mm’s with 1/6.5 to 1/7” twists and 107-115gr VLD’s are starting to show up in the winners circles.
Soon it’s going to be the 6mm Creed, Dasher and XC.

 

[Ireload2]

Check the manuals. You can get a 120 grain bullets to go 3100 out of a .25-06. It is flatter. For targets flatter trumps anything else because you are only shooting holes in a piece of paper.

Shooting bullets with poor BC's faster doesn't make up for high BC bullets. Even if you could get the best 117 gr .257 bullet to leave the muzzle at 3000 fps (and you can in a 25-06) the best 147 gr 6.5mm bullet at 2700 fps out performs it in every way except trajectory. And that is within just a few inches.

I have nothing against the 25's, but we already have way more calibers than we need. For whatever reason manufacturers have made good bullets, and barrels to shoot them in 24, 26, 28, 30, and 33 calibers. I'm sure it would be very much possible to do the same thing in 25, 27, and 32 calibers. But I just don't see the demand.

 

[whatnickname]

The pressure increase is significant but the real difference lies in the twist rate and the available bullets. The Creed has a fast twist and uses bullets up to 140gr with ease. The .250 can utilize 115's but is really in its sweet spot with 100's. Therein lies the difference between an adequate deer/antelope cartridge and an acceptable elk cartridge. I'll also say that we've learned a lot about ballistics, internal, external and terminal and that the 6.5CM is a product of 100yrs of education. Which is why it is a very efficient little package. I'm a big fan of the .250 but wish mine was a 6.5CM.

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If you ever decide that you want to sell that rifle please let me know.