Compliance works? Not really...
- Thread starter english kanigit
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HI express
Member
Agreed
English K.,
I have a bud that was caught in a home invasion robbery. They held him and his wife at gunpoint on the living room couch while they robbed the house.
He figured that they both quietly cooperating and that would be it, right?
As the two perps were walking out with the swag, the last guy turned around and triggered two rounds at my friend. Luckily for my friend, he had just turned to hug his wife to calm her down, accidentally taking the both of them out of the line of fire. Both rounds hit the couch where my friend had just been sitting.
Compliance?
Another friend was taking a date to a local restaurant. He had spent most of his ready cash on the dinner so when he was walking with his date to their car which was parked on the street one block away from the restaurant, an armed robber held them up. My friend gave him what little money that he had available.
The girl sold us later that the robber got really ticked that he had to go through so much trouble for so little money. He waved his gun for them to leave. They walked away.
For some reason the perp got really ticked when they had gotten several paces away, he shot once.. killing my friend with one shot in the back of the head.
Compliance..sure, until you can get the drop on the BG(s) or can beat them at their game.
Peace out.
Luck guys. Do what you have to to survive.
English K.,
I have a bud that was caught in a home invasion robbery. They held him and his wife at gunpoint on the living room couch while they robbed the house.
He figured that they both quietly cooperating and that would be it, right?
As the two perps were walking out with the swag, the last guy turned around and triggered two rounds at my friend. Luckily for my friend, he had just turned to hug his wife to calm her down, accidentally taking the both of them out of the line of fire. Both rounds hit the couch where my friend had just been sitting.
Compliance?
Another friend was taking a date to a local restaurant. He had spent most of his ready cash on the dinner so when he was walking with his date to their car which was parked on the street one block away from the restaurant, an armed robber held them up. My friend gave him what little money that he had available.
The girl sold us later that the robber got really ticked that he had to go through so much trouble for so little money. He waved his gun for them to leave. They walked away.
For some reason the perp got really ticked when they had gotten several paces away, he shot once.. killing my friend with one shot in the back of the head.
Compliance..sure, until you can get the drop on the BG(s) or can beat them at their game.
Peace out.
Luck guys. Do what you have to to survive.
Ryder
Member
The chemicals of initial shock are panic. This does indeed wear off very fast but panic reactions are counter-productive and I say good riddance to that. Adrenaline reserves aren't all used up by initial shock. I have no idea how long adrenaline can pump in a person but mine has yet to give out while it was still needed.
Nice posts DNS! I tried explaining this to someone in a previous thread. I should have just referred them to you
Ryder
Member
That's submission. Compliance is more of a game for some of us
If compliance worked, my student/colleague would still be alive...not MURDERED!
I had a wonderful student-colleague, at the college where I instruct, who was murdered about two months ago. He was working in a fast-food place to support his son and daughter who he loved dearly, and to pay for his education. One evening, "someone" robbed the place.
They COMPLIED; yet, they where all four SHOT DEAD, including my student-colleague! Now, everytime I walk out of my office on campus, the first thing I see is an empty desk at his workstation!
Compliance? Compliance should be defined as shoot as-much, as-fast, and as-long-as you can! Stop firing when they're dead, you're out of ammo, or you're barrel melts!
As our CCW instructor told us, "Who says dead men don't talk? If you're taking on a CCW, you're taking on an assumption that you are willing to die in the line of fire. You have a responsibility to at least 'mark' each one of the bad guys before you 'give-up-the-ghost'. That way, when they go to the hospital, or they are found dead in a gutter, the police can identify them for what/who they are."
At his on-campus service for my student-colleague, the campus minister stood up there talking about how, "...guns are bad...we need more gun-control laws...sign and anti-gun bill...guns 'kill'". After the service, I responded to several colleagues, "You know, I'm going to sell all of my guns...they're defective! My guns have never killed ANYONE...they must be defective! I want my money back!"
My point, guns, obviously aren't bad; people are bad. Gun control means "two hands", and any fool can pull a trigger. What we need is more lawful people packing massive numbers of guns, and packing massive amounts of +P+ ammo. Then, when society's cockroaches scurry out at night, deal with them.
Do I sound angry? Perhaps. Is my anger justified? Certainly. I lost a student and a colleague. But worse yet, his children lost a wonderful Daddy! His mother lost one of two sons.
I miss my friend! MY student! My colleague! I hate seeing that empty desk, because that's how it leaves me feeling, empty!
Because he complied...he's dead!
Doc2005
I had a wonderful student-colleague, at the college where I instruct, who was murdered about two months ago. He was working in a fast-food place to support his son and daughter who he loved dearly, and to pay for his education. One evening, "someone" robbed the place.
They COMPLIED; yet, they where all four SHOT DEAD, including my student-colleague! Now, everytime I walk out of my office on campus, the first thing I see is an empty desk at his workstation!
Compliance? Compliance should be defined as shoot as-much, as-fast, and as-long-as you can! Stop firing when they're dead, you're out of ammo, or you're barrel melts!
As our CCW instructor told us, "Who says dead men don't talk? If you're taking on a CCW, you're taking on an assumption that you are willing to die in the line of fire. You have a responsibility to at least 'mark' each one of the bad guys before you 'give-up-the-ghost'. That way, when they go to the hospital, or they are found dead in a gutter, the police can identify them for what/who they are."
At his on-campus service for my student-colleague, the campus minister stood up there talking about how, "...guns are bad...we need more gun-control laws...sign and anti-gun bill...guns 'kill'". After the service, I responded to several colleagues, "You know, I'm going to sell all of my guns...they're defective! My guns have never killed ANYONE...they must be defective! I want my money back!"
My point, guns, obviously aren't bad; people are bad. Gun control means "two hands", and any fool can pull a trigger. What we need is more lawful people packing massive numbers of guns, and packing massive amounts of +P+ ammo. Then, when society's cockroaches scurry out at night, deal with them.
Do I sound angry? Perhaps. Is my anger justified? Certainly. I lost a student and a colleague. But worse yet, his children lost a wonderful Daddy! His mother lost one of two sons.
I miss my friend! MY student! My colleague! I hate seeing that empty desk, because that's how it leaves me feeling, empty!
Because he complied...he's dead!
Doc2005
english kanigit
Member
Good words.
While I am very sorry for your losses, I have a feeling that this thread and your posts can and will serve as useful object lessons to others.
The only thing I really have to add here is (what should be) the first rule of combat.
While I am very sorry for your losses, I have a feeling that this thread and your posts can and will serve as useful object lessons to others.
The only thing I really have to add here is (what should be) the first rule of combat.
Always cheat. Always win.
I know what the definition is, I also know what the "authorities" mean when they say 'compliance'. What they mean is exactly what I said, whatever you want to call it.
They definitely do NOT mean that you should go along until you see a chance to fight back, they're talking about you not fighting back AT ALL until the encounter is completely over.
Automatic compliance is just as foolish as automatic immediate resistance. The situation should be assessed and when there is an opportunity, one should use the means at his disposal to either effect his escape or disable his attacker(s).
The idea that it is possible ahead of time to define an effective one or two word strategy that will be effective against all violent crimes is ridiculous.
RiverwinoIA
Member
in that clerks situation, where was the time to take action?
imagine you were in his place, with a concealed pistol IWB. what could/would/should you do to give yourself a window to deploy the weapon? sidestep and try to quick draw him? look behind him and say "theres a cop here"? i mean, when i put myself in his shoes (w/ pistol), i probably wouldnt have pulled the gun because i was being covered the whole time. it would be wise to think up a distraction of some sort, any good ones?
(im personally interested in this, as i run a small retail store part time, and plan to open my own in the near future)
imagine you were in his place, with a concealed pistol IWB. what could/would/should you do to give yourself a window to deploy the weapon? sidestep and try to quick draw him? look behind him and say "theres a cop here"? i mean, when i put myself in his shoes (w/ pistol), i probably wouldnt have pulled the gun because i was being covered the whole time. it would be wise to think up a distraction of some sort, any good ones?
(im personally interested in this, as i run a small retail store part time, and plan to open my own in the near future)
RiverwinoIA
Member
ah..
i watched it a bit more closely and the moment when the perp is pocketing the money35.5 seconds into the video), thats when i would have drawn.
but, imagine some guy is covering you while the other one snags the money, what then.
i watched it a bit more closely and the moment when the perp is pocketing the money
35.5 seconds into the video), thats when i would have drawn. but, imagine some guy is covering you while the other one snags the money, what then.
rustymaggot
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i did 3 and a half years at a gas station doing graveyard shift. next to a on ramp. one real robbery attempt and a few other wild nights but this story is just about the robbery night....
a car with two guys in it pulls up outside and one guy yels inside'hey, can you break a 100?" i nodded. passenger snatches somthing shiny out of the glovebox and stuffs it into his waistband and covers it up with his shirt. this is the point that i took my own gun out but under the counter where the guy cant see it. i didnt want to freak him out if he turned out to be legit. when he walks in he says "open the register" and lifts up his sweatshirt to show me a chrome plated pistol. he didnt reach for it, he just wanted to show me he had it. i donno what brand or caliber, it looked like crap. what i did next may or may not have been stupid. im sure some of you would have shot the guy right then regardless. i didnt want to escalate things. i brought my gun up just enough to show him i had it. i kept it pointed at the floor, away from the robber, so i didnt pressure him into defending himself. he was absolutely stunned. he said "oh" and kinda paused for a second. then he slowly moved his hands away from his body to show that he wasnt going for his gun and he said "nevermind". and he slowly backed out to the door. when he was safely outside he panicked and ran to the car yelling "go go go go go" to his driver.
things ended well that night because i saw it comming. truthfully, i kinda liked the guy. he was robbing me, but he did it politely. he didnt point his gun at me, and as fate had it i was able to return that courtesy.
if you see an opportunity take it. dont rely on the bad guys good nature to leave you alive. heck, hes the one pointing a gun at you for less than 30 dollars, you really want the decision left in that dummys hands? my opportunity to get into the decision making process came early enough that i avoided anything nasty. i was lucky. lucky that i saw what was happening, lucky i had a gun, lucky the robber realized i was giving him a way out.
a car with two guys in it pulls up outside and one guy yels inside'hey, can you break a 100?" i nodded. passenger snatches somthing shiny out of the glovebox and stuffs it into his waistband and covers it up with his shirt. this is the point that i took my own gun out but under the counter where the guy cant see it. i didnt want to freak him out if he turned out to be legit. when he walks in he says "open the register" and lifts up his sweatshirt to show me a chrome plated pistol. he didnt reach for it, he just wanted to show me he had it. i donno what brand or caliber, it looked like crap. what i did next may or may not have been stupid. im sure some of you would have shot the guy right then regardless. i didnt want to escalate things. i brought my gun up just enough to show him i had it. i kept it pointed at the floor, away from the robber, so i didnt pressure him into defending himself. he was absolutely stunned. he said "oh" and kinda paused for a second. then he slowly moved his hands away from his body to show that he wasnt going for his gun and he said "nevermind". and he slowly backed out to the door. when he was safely outside he panicked and ran to the car yelling "go go go go go" to his driver.
things ended well that night because i saw it comming. truthfully, i kinda liked the guy. he was robbing me, but he did it politely. he didnt point his gun at me, and as fate had it i was able to return that courtesy.
if you see an opportunity take it. dont rely on the bad guys good nature to leave you alive. heck, hes the one pointing a gun at you for less than 30 dollars, you really want the decision left in that dummys hands? my opportunity to get into the decision making process came early enough that i avoided anything nasty. i was lucky. lucky that i saw what was happening, lucky i had a gun, lucky the robber realized i was giving him a way out.
rustymaggot said:
Yup, this is why I think displaying a weapon sometimes can act as a powerfull deterrant. Most people I hear say "If I pull my gun out, someone is getting shot"... I don't think I quite agree with this. If there is no immideate deadly danger, but you KNOW it is coming within short moments or has a great potential to escale to deadly danger, pulling a firearm and retreating can go a long way.
1911 guy
Member
Good call
The above post is on target with my own thinking. If I need to clear leather, the situation merits a shoot. If, however, the would be perp immediately backs down, the situation has changed and we might both yet be spared a bad day.
The above post is on target with my own thinking. If I need to clear leather, the situation merits a shoot. If, however, the would be perp immediately backs down, the situation has changed and we might both yet be spared a bad day.
natrab
Member
I dunno, that last scenario sounds risky to me. Letting a perp out of your sight *with* a weapon when you have the jump on them could be asking for a gunfight Either assert yourself and get him on the ground, or shoot the second his hand gets on his weapon. To me, that is threatening my life. He could walk outside and grab a friend and a shotgun and come back for all I know. Especially in gang-infested areas, many won't back down for pride reasons.
On another note, my job is a scary one for self defense. I'm an EMT in the second worst city for gun deaths in California (Salinas of all places, second only to Richmond). I respond to LOTS of gunshot wounds especially in gang situations. I am also not allowed to carry any self defense gear (though I'm considering purchasing a vest). So far we've never had a problem with EMS getting shot or shot at, however as was discussed, statistics don't mean much in that area. All it takes is one crackhead who decides he wants my narcs and who's seen enough TV to know he can't leave witnesses and that's it.
Fortunately I've had some training on being street smart and avoiding situations. First of all, if any of you are in EMS, you know the basic rule of order of importance. Number one is yourself, number two is your partner, three is your vehicle and gear, and four is the patient. If any of the first three things are compromised, the patient has to wait. I've driven away from bleeding patients running out to our rig because I saw he was packing. I'm off to stage around the corner while law defuses the scene. I always stand to the side of the door while knocking and visualize before I come close to entering. If anything looks dangerous, I'm backing off and calling for PD code 3. I still worry that the day may come where I have to fight for my life and I won't hesitate. As far as compliance goes, I find avoidance the best solution. If I ever am stuck in a situation where I am at gunpoint with nowhere to go, I will comply as I know law will be on the way and the situation will go from there.
As far as convenience stores go, if you own one, allow there to be a weapon behind the counter. If you are employed at one, assess your risk and make sure it's really worth it (there will always be other jobs).
On another note, my job is a scary one for self defense. I'm an EMT in the second worst city for gun deaths in California (Salinas of all places, second only to Richmond). I respond to LOTS of gunshot wounds especially in gang situations. I am also not allowed to carry any self defense gear (though I'm considering purchasing a vest). So far we've never had a problem with EMS getting shot or shot at, however as was discussed, statistics don't mean much in that area. All it takes is one crackhead who decides he wants my narcs and who's seen enough TV to know he can't leave witnesses and that's it.
Fortunately I've had some training on being street smart and avoiding situations. First of all, if any of you are in EMS, you know the basic rule of order of importance. Number one is yourself, number two is your partner, three is your vehicle and gear, and four is the patient. If any of the first three things are compromised, the patient has to wait. I've driven away from bleeding patients running out to our rig because I saw he was packing. I'm off to stage around the corner while law defuses the scene. I always stand to the side of the door while knocking and visualize before I come close to entering. If anything looks dangerous, I'm backing off and calling for PD code 3. I still worry that the day may come where I have to fight for my life and I won't hesitate. As far as compliance goes, I find avoidance the best solution. If I ever am stuck in a situation where I am at gunpoint with nowhere to go, I will comply as I know law will be on the way and the situation will go from there.
As far as convenience stores go, if you own one, allow there to be a weapon behind the counter. If you are employed at one, assess your risk and make sure it's really worth it (there will always be other jobs).
rustymaggot
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this happened in san luis obispo. usually pretty quiet. the guy didnt seem gangster-ish. also, i had a automatic door lock. i hit a switch and the doors lock. its a small snack area kind of thing. the glass is that bullet risistant type. glass is over a inch thick around the cashiers area and the doors are about 1/4 inch thick. same stuff but thinner. a year or so earlier i had a dingleberry try to throw a cinderblock at me thru the door. he got a running start and threw it with all his might. brick bounced off and hit him. that was the thin glass that bounced a cinderblock off it. the thick stuff was approx 5 times as thick.
its not my job to detain or disarm robbers. its my job to make sure a robber doesnt shoot me. i give exactly half a tap dancing ducks fart about the bosses money in the register. if i was 100 percent sure he would have just taken the cash and left id have let him. i just wasnt completely sure what was going on and i didnt feel like letting him choose my level of involvement. way i see it is i allowed him a opportunity to get out before things went south. if he had went for it i definately would have got him. i had mine chambered and finger on the trigger on a double action eaa witness in 9mm. that holds 17 and i had at least one spare mag. i think if i had actually drawn down on him he would have freaked and tried somthing. the legal mess would have been hell, let alone the emotional baggage from shooting a guy. oh, and the extra work of having to wipe the blood off the candy racks would have bummed my whole night. hehehehhe
now, did i think this all out at the time? nope, i was just lucky. people never know what they really will do in any given circumstance untill it happens.
its not my job to detain or disarm robbers. its my job to make sure a robber doesnt shoot me. i give exactly half a tap dancing ducks fart about the bosses money in the register. if i was 100 percent sure he would have just taken the cash and left id have let him. i just wasnt completely sure what was going on and i didnt feel like letting him choose my level of involvement. way i see it is i allowed him a opportunity to get out before things went south. if he had went for it i definately would have got him. i had mine chambered and finger on the trigger on a double action eaa witness in 9mm. that holds 17 and i had at least one spare mag. i think if i had actually drawn down on him he would have freaked and tried somthing. the legal mess would have been hell, let alone the emotional baggage from shooting a guy. oh, and the extra work of having to wipe the blood off the candy racks would have bummed my whole night. hehehehhe
now, did i think this all out at the time? nope, i was just lucky. people never know what they really will do in any given circumstance untill it happens.
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