Compressed Load Question..

Status
Not open for further replies.

RN

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
206
Location
Georgia
Hi Guys,

Ok..I was loading up some .223 tonight with 75gr HPBT's with Varget. My cases are a mix of CBC,(5.56) LC 13,(5.56) and RP(.223).. Started at 22.5 and worked up to 23.5..

I noticed that the case on the military rounds are more filled than the .223 and I am sure this is due to the brass being thicker in the 5.56 cases. On those, its basically a compressed charge even though it's well below "max" according to Hodgen and Lee..

Anyone give me some info on this type of situation? Safe? Not safe?
 
Does it give a C by the max number? This is the only time I run compressed loads is when they have compressed loads in the manual or powder website.

I have a compressed load that is my most accurate and most consistent but in the manual is says I can use one.

If Varget doesn't call for a compressed load, then I would back off the load.
 
I also agree....if reloading manual doesn't indicate a compressed charge I would back up and recheck my setup starting with the simple things like dump 10 loads and weigh them to verify your charge weight. You should also manually fill a couple of the cases to the top of the neck, dump onto scale and weigh the total charge in the case to see if it is as simple as variations between brass manufacturers as you suspected. If it turns out it is internal case volume variations I would likely segregate my brass if the difference was significant. I have loaded many compressed loads in my hunting guns before but have always used same brass and prepared brass identically since a miss or failure is much more of problem in a hunting situation. For range plinking ammo this is much less of a problem but still a significant variation like your situation would bug me enough to dig until I figured out the issue. Best of luck and I am sure folks will have tons of other ideas.
 
Last edited:
hodgen data with .223 or with 5.56? that is where you will run into problems. that is a different cartridge. you are also suppose to reduce load 10% when loading 5.56 with .223 data. just make it easy, the case is smaller there for the pressure will be higher.
 
Great info...I will have to research the differences for loading 5.56 and .223...The load data on Hodgen says 25 gr C but that's in a .223 case.. My loads in 5.56 are compressed at 23.5 gr so that might be ok but I will have to check into it..
 
Suggest you start out by sorting your cases.

Mixed brass is never a good idea when pushing things!

rc
 
Suggest you start out by sorting your cases.

No doubt. In the least it kind of takes out a variable so you can worry with something else.

I just don't understand NOT sorting cases. Or maybe I just have to much time on my hands..
 
thanks..From what I have been reading, it's not uncommon at all to compress Varget loads..The 23.5 load in the 5.56 case is still not max so I think it's good to go..Just a little strange. Quite a few books and lots of threads state that for loading purposes the calibers are almost identical..

I will sort form here in out though..Do you consider all LC to be "one" cartridge or do you go further and sort LC by year?
 
RN ... here is a little chart that I ran across ... maybe it will help understand how some of the .223/5.56 cases stack up as far as weight goes...

All brass was trimmed to 1.750" +/-.001":

Federal (10 pcs): Average Weight 96.3 gr, ES 1.1 gr
ICC (Russian) (20 pcs): Average Weight 98.9 gr, ES 1.8 gr
IMG (Guatamalan) (10 pcs): Average Weight 96.2 gr, ES 1.4 gr
LC '03 (10 pcs): Average Weight 91.8 gr, ES 2.4 gr
LC '11 (25 pcs): Average Weight 92.3 gr, ES 2.1 gr
Prvi Partizan (10 pcs): Average Weight 95.9 gr, ES 2.6 gr
Remington (10 pcs): Average Weight 92.9 gr, ES 1.1 gr
Sellier & Bellot (10 pcs): Average Weight 91.1 gr, ES 2.0 gr
WCC '01 ( 10 pcs): Average Weight 93.2 gr, ES 1.3 gr
 
According to QuickLOAD, and I have assumed standard SAAMI seating depth and case volumes, your 23.5gr load is 108.1% of usable case volume and is overpressure at 56 851psi vs. 55 000psi SAAMI max..

Now if you are seated deeper than 2.260" and if your case capacity's are smaller than SAAMI standards, which is very possible, then your pressures will be even higher.

Give me your average case capacity of fire formed brass that you will use going forward, your COL, the exact bullet and manufacturer, and your barrel length and we can be more constructive with a load.
 
Andrew..Thanks man..

Couple things..Saami is one thing but the 5.56 loads to more pressure than that..65,000? Something like that..even Hornady list 23.5 of Varget as a Max load nut other go as high as 25..Humm..

Also, Undrstanding that I am somewhat of a newbie, Fire form brass moving forward? Is that brass you would reuse with out sizing again or something. Only Neck Size?

Right now I use RCBS AR Sizer and a Forster ultra seater. I am trimming to 1.750 and seating a 75gr Hornady HPBT Match to an OAL of 2.250

Also, I thought I heard that with Bottleneck cartridges deeper seating somewhat reduces pressure unlike in straight wall cartridges..

Will get the other stuff ASAP..
 
Last edited:
Ok..I was loading up some .223 tonight with 75gr HPBT's with Varget. My cases are a mix of CBC,(5.56) LC 13,(5.56) and RP(.223).. Started at 22.5 and worked up to 23.5..
Are you shooting in a 5.56mm chamber or a .223 chamber?

I noticed that the case on the military rounds are more filled than the .223 and I am sure this is due to the brass being thicker in the 5.56 cases. On those, its basically a compressed charge even though it's well below "max" according to Hodgen and Lee.

Make sure you are comparing apples with apples, the manner in which the pressure is measured is important here, NATO uses EPVAT NAAG-LG/3-SG/1 while .223 is measured in either CIP or SAAMI. I always use SAAMI where I can as it is a constant for me.

.223 Rem Piezo CIP 62 366psi
.223 SAAMI Piezo SAAMI 55 00psi
5.56 NATO EPVAT NAAG-LG/3-SG/1 62 366psi

Hodgson load tables refer to max CUP pressure of 50 700 which is different again.

.223 SAAMI is 55 000psi Piezo SAAMI = 2 797fps
.223 Rem is 62 366psi Piezo CIP = 2 797fps

So the conclusion that one can draw is that both experience the same "real" pressure to produce the same velocity.

Hope this makes sense?


http://ballistictools.com/articles/5.56-vs-.223-myths-and-facts.php
 
Uh-oh, hope his head didn't explode on that one, OP disappeared! Just kidding, good posts Andrew.
 
Also, I thought I heard that with Bottleneck cartridges deeper seating somewhat reduces pressure unlike in straight wall cartridges..

You heard wrong. That would defy the laws of physics. The volume/pressure relationship is very well understood in a system like a cartridge case and the only way this would hold true is if the bullet had initially been seated hard against the lands. In that instance giving it a little room to initially accelerate by seating it deeper might lower pressures as compared to before, but it would raise pressures otherwise because the volume inside the case was reduced.
 
RN In my post ... ES in this "case" means the Extreme Spread between the weight of cases weighted ... take the WW 01 the average is 93.2 grains for ten cases the ES is 1.3 gr..... meaning that the lightest case weight is 92.58 and the heaviest is 93.85 gr ...
 
cartridge cases

I found hornady brass generally holds more powder than federal ..(270 win)more important than reloading manual limits, is your particular situation at that time.sort brass, lots of powder change too.I weigh the cases a put them into lots as well.might as well standardize the it as much as you can.
 
@elkins...Ok..I was refer to the lands increasing pressure but your statement makes sense also..What I don't understand is how the load books show the use of Varget..Some books go as high as 26 gr..from my limited experience that would be coming out the top of a case..jezzzz...

Anyway, It seems that both cartridges can take the same load but due to volume constraints, I will load it down some.. I have read lots of threads where people are using drop tubes just to squeeze in more Varget. A lot of people like Varget compressed for some reason..
 
Oh..To answer your other question Andrew..These rounds are for my Daniel Defense DDMV5 18 inch..
 
You heard wrong. That would defy the laws of physics. The volume/pressure relationship is very well understood in a system like a cartridge case and the only way this would hold true is if the bullet had initially been seated hard against the lands. In that instance giving it a little room to initially accelerate by seating it deeper might lower pressures as compared to before, but it would raise pressures otherwise because the volume inside the case was reduced.

Well stated.

I soon discovered that a "flaw" in QuickLOAD is that it takes only the internal ballistic of the cartridge into account UNTIL the loaded on the lands. Thinking about it is would be nigh impossible for QL to calculate this due to the varying angle of the lands vs. the ogive shape so no criticism of QL here.

QL does not take the effect of approaching the lands into consideration. So QL tells you to add some 7 200psi to the Start Initialisation pressure if seated on the lands but does not offer any advice as you get closer to the lands and we know the effect of inertia will increase as we approach the lands.

So I loaded up a bunch of 7.62 rounds at varying COL's and headed to the range get some data to plot. I reworked the average speed back to a pressure and plotted the pressure in psi vs. the distance from the lands in mm.

Here is what I discovered, forgive the metric units.

As you set the bullet further out the pressure drops, well no surprises here. But as one approaches the lands that the pressure then started to increase in an exponential fashion, despite their being more volume in the case as you are now introducing an external resistive component. It is for this reason that playing close to the lands must be done with respect.

Picture0001.jpg

I have two plots, the "cartridge pressure" is QL and the "inertia pressure" is the plot from actual results. Clearly one can see that from 1mm (0.040") the pressure begins to rise. So in this example the pressure difference for the same load but seated 0.040" off vs. on the lands is 6 000psi, close to the QL allowance).

I must state here that I DID NOT shoot the last result off the lands, I assumed QL to be correct and I merely plotted the last result fictitiously. It may be that the actual pressure increased more than QL. I have never shot off the lands and am reluctant to do so, so forgive the last data point that I manipulated.
 
Last edited:
The above is what I saw but didn't have a fancy graph. Lol. I didn't know pressures, but I sure saw the velocity on my chronograph drop as I got closer to the lands. I stopped my testing at .02 off the lands but have been thinking about retesting slowly getting closer to lands and seeing if anything changes with accuracy. I figured I'd get closer by .002" until I get to where I'm .004" off the lands.
 
Even with bolt gun brass this is a concern we must recognize and address. I have seen this many times, and it almost always results from one head stamp being thicker than another, or more specifically, than what the data reflects.

GS
 
Andrew Leigh said:
According to QuickLOAD, and I have assumed standard SAAMI seating depth and case volumes, your 23.5gr load is 108.1% of usable case volume and is overpressure at 56 851psi vs. 55 000psi SAAMI max..

Andrew, QuickLOAD provides fill % which is calculated using the volume of the powder charge divided by the available case volume and I have to wonder as to the accuracy of this value. Loading manuals such as Barnes list load density which is the charge weight divided by the available case volume. What I've noticed is that QL fill % values of 106% to 107% equate to my crunching powder kernels or what I consider to be a compressed load. In other words, I'm not crunching kernels at fill % values below 106% and start to crunch kernels at 107% and higher. Just my personal observation based on using QL with three different powders and cartridges.
 
All good info..Still a little confused as to how to interpret published load data for smaller volume LC brass.. For example..I loaded up 50 LC today with the lowest/starting load of Reloader 15. According to Lyman 49 that is 23.9 set to an OAL 2.260..I didn't hear them crunching but it was pretty full with a 69gr Sierra HPBT MK.. How do you guys load for these? My guess is the data is the same for both up to the point where it's too much for the LC...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top