I have a question, on behalf of my father, about his desire to keep a gun in his company car, even though they prohibit it. I realize that since it is a company owned car he has no right to keep it in there if they don't allow it, and they can search the car at their leisure. However, if he kept said gun in a separate compartment (for instance a privately owned locked box kept in the trunk) would they also have the right to search said box? If he removed the box at the time of the search from their property (the car) would they then have a right to search the box as well?
Concerning Company Cars and Guns
- Thread starter Ben86
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Ron Go
Member
I worked for 2 large companies and policies at both were no guns in company cars or any car you are using for work purposes during work hours. This also means your personal car if you are using it for work purposes. The penalty was anything up to termination. It doesn't matter if it is in a box or anything else since it is in the car. It is usually a don't tell thing in places like Texas since most service technicians have guns in their car.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Odds are, unless he's a very-big VIP in the company, a refusal to allow a search of a lockbox or briefcase would lead to dismissal. That's assuming they have some reason to search the car for "wrongful items". Such a search would likely be of everything in the car. Strictly speaking, there is not supposed to be anything in a company car which is not job-related.
So I gather that while they may not have a right to demand that he let them search the locked box, they can still fire him for failing to let them do so. I'm going to recommend that he take an in-depth look into his company's policy on firearms. It sounds like he is not too familiar with it's language. He's also not a big whig, a district manager, but not head honcho.
If I've got this right, legally speaking they have every right to search their property. Legally he can refuse them searching of his property. However, refusal could lead to termination according to the agreed upon policy.
If I've got this right, legally speaking they have every right to search their property. Legally he can refuse them searching of his property. However, refusal could lead to termination according to the agreed upon policy.
oneounceload
member
Some of the companies I have worked for not only prohibited guns in the company vehicles, they also prohibited smoking, stopping at the C-store on the way home and buying a 6-pack for after you get home, or even using the car to go the grocery store.
He would need to read their policies REAL careful if he doesn't want to risk losing his job
He would need to read their policies REAL careful if he doesn't want to risk losing his job
calaverasslim
Member
You got it. He is taking his future with this company in his hands if he starts to carry a firearm in the vehicle. At any time.
If he feels so unsafe while traveling in this vehicle, then have him contact his supervisor and see what he can work out.
In the meantime, no guns
If he feels so unsafe while traveling in this vehicle, then have him contact his supervisor and see what he can work out.
In the meantime, no guns
If it's a company owned car, company management can demand a search. If the employee refuses, and the company wants to take the hard line, they can call the police and have the employee charged with theft until it's proved that the locked box contains personal property. The employee will then have to reveal what's in the box and get fired anyway. Better to lobby management for a policy change.
leadcounsel
member
Keeping a gun in the car is likely prohibited by the company. And yes the company can search the contents of its property.
I am NOT convinced the company can search his own person, nor his own private briefcase, unless they have alerted the police and demonstrated probable cause to conduct a search.
Keep in mind that if he uses the gun, he will likely be fired for violating company policy. It's a balancing test as to whether his own defense is worth the risk.
The policy is there to protect the company from lawsuits for a negligent weapons use/charge.
I am NOT convinced the company can search his own person, nor his own private briefcase, unless they have alerted the police and demonstrated probable cause to conduct a search.
Keep in mind that if he uses the gun, he will likely be fired for violating company policy. It's a balancing test as to whether his own defense is worth the risk.
The policy is there to protect the company from lawsuits for a negligent weapons use/charge.
Precisely. The only legal way they could force a search of his personal briefcase or lockbox is to get the police involved, whom would have to have probable cause and a warrant to search it, especially if it were in a separate locked compartment (the trunk) and therefore outside of his arm reach inside the cabin.
oneounceload
member
Maybe, maybe not - it would depend upon the conditions pertaining to having a company car assigned to you. They MAY have it stipulated that anything inside the car is technically company property because ONLY company property can be inside the car; therefore they would have the right to look at any and all contents.
The best bet is to NOT have a gun in a company car unless it is expressly permitted.
mgkdrgn
Member
If they say "no guns in the car" .. then they mean "no guns in the car.
If you refuse to let them search something that you have in their car, you are gonna get canned.
Now, that said ... is his job possibly worth his life? I don't know about his situation... but personally I'd be on the side of "taking my chances" as opposed to running around unarmed. But, I can't speak for your dads circumstances.
If you refuse to let them search something that you have in their car, you are gonna get canned.
Now, that said ... is his job possibly worth his life? I don't know about his situation... but personally I'd be on the side of "taking my chances" as opposed to running around unarmed. But, I can't speak for your dads circumstances.
longhair75
Member
It is specifically spelled out in my company handbook that carrying a firearm during working hours or in the company vehicles is grounds for termination. I talked to the owner about this and he explained that this was at the insistence of our liability insurance provider.
I do not think that I have ever worked for an employer that did not have a line in the company handbook stating that guns were prohibited on the premises and including company cars. It has never been enforced, but it was there in case it ever became a problem. The only way to change that would be to get insurance companies to change their requirements and I don't see that happening easily.
I worked for the Fed Gov they search everything. I carried a gun when I worked nights, a gun was almost always hidden in my car or truck. If you look you can find a place to hide a small hand gun, not a 1911. I had a gun hid on my motorcycles in the late 60's to mid 70's.
I worked for a large corporation for 18 years and had a company car most of that time. They did not have a written policy on guns in their cars. But then again, I've had only 3 real jobs in my lifetime, not counting the army, so I can't speak for most companies. Maybe this day and age it's becoming more commonplace for employers to prohibit firearms, although I don't know why. We all know more guns mean less crime.
Off topic, but it would be interesting to know how many accidents, or gun related incidents, have resulted from employee guns in ordinary company vehicles. My guess is very few...
I don't think "most employers" are concerned enough to address the issue as a formal written policy. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, perhaps you can cite some industry/Dept of Labor/FBI data to support this.
Ike R
Member
I almost always carry in my truck at work, regardless of it being on payroll or not. The only times I do not are when I am in a FIRC, MARSEC, or refinery area, if i have to go into one without being told beforehand I either leave my peice with a friendly coworker that is not going or drop it off at a pawnshop (I really hate doing this, but it has saved my job more than once)
most companys I work for have a strict no carry policy, but after an encounter I had at work one day I ignore it because it is rarely enforced.
most companys I work for have a strict no carry policy, but after an encounter I had at work one day I ignore it because it is rarely enforced.
ReloaderEd
Member
Firearms in company/personal cars
I am retired now but had two company purchased cars in my driveway when I was on the road working. Before that I rented cars that the company paid for and prior to that I was paid milage for use of my personnal vehicle.
I was run off the road one time going to a town in Kentucky late at night. If I had not had a 22 derringer in my brief case I definitely and would been SOL...
As is was, I jumped out of my car and had a figure approaching me in the dark. His partner was standing by the passenger side door on their vehicle. I fired the first round over his head and he turned and ran. They both sped off in their car. If he had kept coming I would have shot him, dead I certainly hope.
I called the cops (who never showed up) and sent my boss an email telling him what happened. My company did not fire me, I got an attaboy.
Of coarse one aw **** destroys all your attaboys.
Now I carry a cased 12 gauge shotgun with riot barrel. In my truck and the concealed bull**** crossing state lines is just that. I am a law abiding citizen who would rather be alive with his family than dead for no apparent reason.
I am retired now but had two company purchased cars in my driveway when I was on the road working. Before that I rented cars that the company paid for and prior to that I was paid milage for use of my personnal vehicle.
I was run off the road one time going to a town in Kentucky late at night. If I had not had a 22 derringer in my brief case I definitely and would been SOL...
As is was, I jumped out of my car and had a figure approaching me in the dark. His partner was standing by the passenger side door on their vehicle. I fired the first round over his head and he turned and ran. They both sped off in their car. If he had kept coming I would have shot him, dead I certainly hope.
I called the cops (who never showed up) and sent my boss an email telling him what happened. My company did not fire me, I got an attaboy.
Of coarse one aw **** destroys all your attaboys.
Now I carry a cased 12 gauge shotgun with riot barrel. In my truck and the concealed bull**** crossing state lines is just that. I am a law abiding citizen who would rather be alive with his family than dead for no apparent reason.
I think that you're right, the number of discharges in locked, unoccupied cars is probably as close to zero as possible and most companies aren't going to care that much about it, especially smaller and mid sized ones. But if a company's insurance carrier tells them that they have to put something in the handbook banning guns on premise or pay higher rates, what are they going to do... This may be a regional difference, but I only live in a mildly communist state.
He's a firm believer in the "better to be judged by twelve then carried by six" saying, so I'm sure he'd rather get fired than be a victim of a violent crime. He also travels A LOT, as he has a large district to oversee. So I can understand his desire to have a gun with him.
What he's trying to conceal is a little Sig P238. He could easily hide that. I told him he could put it in his briefcase or a day planer and no one would know. He's also trying to get into the concealed carry way of life, copy cat
so he's a little new to the whole concept.I'm going to see if he can get me a copy of his company's policy on guns in writing, if at all possible, so I can review it carefully and give him my legal opinion.
the other thing that people are missing in this thread, is that a company by refusing your right to have your weapon, is assuming liability for your safety. also the no guns on company property, or in your personal car, is wrong. the supreme court in Florida sided against major corporations. they stated that the companies personal property rights did not supersede the personal property rights of a vehicle owner. and that a company does not have a right to force you to come to work unarmed for you're entire commute to and from work. they listen to their attorneys, and try to avoid liability. However sometimes they actually assume more by trying to govern peoples civil rights. now this does not mean you can parade the halls of your office armed. you can however have your gun locked in your vehicle "on company property" and they would be opening a huge can of worms for themselves if they tried to search it and confiscate anything, or terminate you
Gottahaveone
Member
That's the tactic I took. 15 years ago after our local branch was closed, I was transferred to Pittsburgh to work at the company headquarters at a large engineering firm. The handbook stated no weapons on company property including personal vehicles.
I went to the VP of Engineering (my boss) and requested a meeting with him, the company pres and HR. I explained that I was ex military LE with good training behind me and had a Pa CCW. I told them that I would abide by their rule if they insisted, but that my family and my attorney had very explicit instructions that if I came to harm between the time I left my home in the morning and the time I returned in the afternoon and if it could be reasonably assumed that I could have prevented this harm had I not been denied my right to have a firearm in my personal vehicle, then along with the company they were each and every one going to be vigorously sued.
I will admit I had some leverage because I had a relocation agreement that said that if I took the transfer and they terminated me within 3 years for any reason, they had to pay a years severance and pay relocation back to Ga. The result of the meeting was a letter signed by the HR manager exempting me from the no weapons rule.
My point is a lot of companies haven't thought this thru. If you let it be known that they are assuming more potential liability by accepting responsibility for your safety than they are assuming by allowing you to keep that responsibility for yourself, they may just work with you. YMMV.......
longhair75
Member
Even in a completely obvious self defense shooting there will very likely be a lawsuit. How many times have we seen the families of a bad guy who ended up dead after pointing a gun at a LEO during a crime talk about how, after ten years of gang banging and habitual crime, the bad guy was turning his life around and had started going to church. "That cop didn't need to shoot my baby boy! My baby wouldn't have pulled the trigger! He was just scared of the cop that was profiling him!"
You know there is a wrongful death lawsuit just around the corner. Had this occurred on company time, the employer is all of a sudden involved in the lawsuit. It makes sense from a business perspective.
You know there is a wrongful death lawsuit just around the corner. Had this occurred on company time, the employer is all of a sudden involved in the lawsuit. It makes sense from a business perspective.
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