Condoleeza Rice lays it on the line...

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I love the "Bush et al lied about WMD". If Bush et al lied, then so did France, Germany, Russia, the UN Security Council, the UN Secretary General, Saddam, and Hans Blix. Every one of them agreed that the WMD were there, that additional ones were being developed, and existing one's were being hidden. Blix was on the news last night saying that the only reasonable explanation for the behavior of Iraq during the inspection fiasco was that they were hiding WMD.

But now, because our military, who are not trained as WMD detectives didn't find them in 2-3 months, it's all some vast conspiracy and cover-up. The UN people, who are trained, couldn't find anything and they had over a year ( in installments, granted). Why don't all the people who were bleating about "We just need to give inspectors more time", take the same approach to the US ... But, that would be rational and reasonable, and the US is the source of all evil in the world.
 
If Bush et al lied, then so did France, Germany, Russia, the UN Security Council, the UN Secretary General, Saddam, and Hans Blix. Every one of them agreed that the WMD were there, that additional ones were being developed, and existing one's were being hidden. Blix was on the news last night saying that the only reasonable explanation for the behavior of Iraq during the inspection fiasco was that they were hiding WMD.
Wrong. No one has said Saddam was forthcoming with the inspectors. The lie was about the Bush admin claiming that evidence existed to conclusively (enough to go to war, anyway) claim that Iraq WMDs presented a credible and immediate threat. We have all seen the many quotes from all sorts in the admin. They are lies.
 
I will echo JD on this one.

JD,

Excellent post and I believe there was another thread where this very subject was brought up and the article posted. The amazing thing to me is that there are those detractors out there jumping up to say that beyond the shadow of a doubt the Bush Administration lied about WMD and everything else to sell this war to the American people. The sad part about that is that they have nothing to sunstantiate the claim that they did lie all the while the troops haven't even stopped looking and have a lot of territory to cover before they're done.

To me it's like telling someone you can put jigsaw puzzles together, having them give you one and after five minutes they walk back into the room, see that you only have a few pieces of a corner put together and declare you lied about being able to work a jigsaw puzzle. It's insane to say the least. It is however a loosing arguement in that those that believe they lied will always believe they lied even if the troops pull up billions of tons of everything imaginable. We will have to agree to disagree on the subject but it is humorous to listen to the other side of the issue. All of the arguements I've heard for this border on lunacy but that's just my opinion and I can't possibly know anything since I'm a believer in the administration and evidently a "sheeple" (SP?) according to those I believe to be a bit "touched" or "odd" if you know what I mean ;)

To each his or her own. I'll stick to believing evidence in "support of" since there is some (although not large amounts) rather than believing in the "lied" hypothesis since there is no evidence to support the accusation (not yet anyway, and I do not believe there ever will be)

DRC

Edited:

I brought this over from the Mega WMD cluster...er... I mean thread. This posted by Mike Erwin from the Washington Post:

"Surprising editorial from the Washington Post on WMDs...

"WE ARE DETERMINED to discover the true extent of Saddam Hussein's weapons programs, no matter how long it takes," President Bush said Saturday. That switch from his previous attempts to dismiss the issue was important, and so is the administration's deployment of a 1,400-member Iraq Survey Group that will restart the search for banned chemical, biological and nuclear materials. The debate in Washington over Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and the administration's prewar intelligence about them is becoming more overheated and uninformed -- and the best way to bring it back to earth will be the collection of fresh evidence about what happened to the illegal arms that Iraq was known to possess in the 1990s. If they are found, then much of the public discussion of the past few weeks will be rendered irrelevant. If they are not, then both the Bush administration and U.S. intelligence agencies will suffer a serious loss of credibility -- one that could compromise efforts to disarm or contain the rogue states with WMD that continue to threaten the world.

The absence of facts hasn't stopped critics of the war from rushing to the conclusion that no WMD exist, or that Mr. Bush and his top aides manufactured a case for war by strong-arming U.S. intelligence officials and distorting the evidence. Some of the claims made by Mr. Bush -- such as his assertion that Iraq sought to buy nuclear material from an African country -- indeed have proven false. The administration's argument that Saddam Hussein had a relationship with al Qaeda looks unconvincing to many independent observers, just as it did before the war. Reports that senior Pentagon and White House officials may have pressured intelligence analysts to reach certain conclusions are disturbing and merit the probes now being conducted by Congress. The results of those investigations, and as much of the evidence as possible, should be fully and publicly aired.

It nevertheless remains true that a wide range of governments, agencies and individuals outside the Bush administration looked at the same or their own evidence about Iraq and drew the same fundamental conclusion -- that Saddam Hussein was defying repeated U.N. disarmament orders. The Clinton administration, the governments of Britain, Germany and France, most of the senior U.N. weapons inspectors and most Democratic senators also were convinced that Iraq was hiding weapons and the means to produce them. While the Bush administration may have publicly exaggerated or distorted parts of its case, much of what it said reflected a broad international consensus. If it turns out that neither the weapons nor the programs existed, the failure will be not just that of the Bush administration but of most Western politicians and intelligence experts.

In that sense the failure to find Iraqi WMD so far ought to be less of a scandal than a genuine mystery. Former U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix, no friend of the administration, frankly confessed his puzzlement the other day to The Post's Colum Lynch, pointing out that Saddam Hussein unquestionably tried for 12 years to obstruct and deceive inspectors. "Why deny access if you are not hiding something?" Mr. Blix asked. That's a good question. Until the facts are found, both the administration and its critics ought to avoid drawing conclusions about Saddam Hussein's weapons. Mr. Bush must meanwhile keep his promise to discover the full truth -- and commit to sharing what he learns with the world."

Give special attenion to the first sentence of the second paragraph and the third paragraph in it's entirety.

Take care,
 
America gave notice yesterday that it was ready to act alone against Iran and North Korea if European countries did not co-operate in stopping them from developing nuclear weapons.

Boy, that sure sounds familiar, doesn't it?

I'm starting to think that the Bush administration only has one speech and they just keep changing the name of the country in it!:scrutiny:

Oh well..... how much worse can it get?

A lot worse.....
 
The amazing thing to me is that there are those detractors out there jumping up to say that beyond the shadow of a doubt the Bush Administration lied about WMD and everything else to sell this war to the American people. The sad part about that is that they have nothing to sunstantiate the claim that they did lie all the while the troops haven't even stopped looking and have a lot of territory to cover before they're done.

The "amazing" mirror reflects both ways. Some find it unfathomable that the sheeple still won't admit they were lied to.

1) Colin Powell was sent before the UN with satellite photos of the places these WMD's were being hidden. We knew the exact GPS locations... did they suddenly grow feet and scurry away? It was all BS.

2) The facts show that Iraq had no source of Uranium, the first thing they would need to enrich to get weapons material. The "smoking gun" document where Iraq was trying to buy uranium from an African country was denounced as a fake (even by our own CIA) yet Bush kept using it as proof Iraq had a nuke program ongoing. They did not.

3) The facilities to enrich uranium do not fit in a trailer. How do I know? We (the US) built them back in 1943. We know exactly what the footprint would look like, what systems and connections would be going in and out. Consider this: In 1962 using primative U2 aircraft, we knew exactly what and where the soviets were deploying in Cuba. Last year, when N. Korea put it's nuke program back on line, we knew ten seconds after the furnaces were lit. Yet somehow, we knew Iraq had a facility but we just can't seem to say where it went.... and that from a country who has satellites that can actually READ THE LICENSE PLATES OF CARS! Yeah, if you buy all that I can get you a great price on the Brooklyn bridge.

The genuinely frightening aspect of all this is that (in Bush's mind) he is getting away with it. Nobody in Congress has the guts to call him on it so far because he can blast them as "terrorist lovers", and the general public seems to be buying Bush's re-write of history. Now he says: "Never mind about those WMD's, we invaded to liberate all those poor people from the awful dictator." I guess the lie of the day is whatever one is working.

In fact, Bush is simply widening his net and aiming at Iran and North Korea which is absolutely insane. I am expecting next to see satellite photos of Iran showing Saddam and Osama riding on camel so that he can start the next invasion. :what:
 
I love the "Bush et al lied about WMD". If Bush et al lied, then so did France, Germany, Russia, the UN Security Council, the UN Secretary General, Saddam, and Hans Blix. Every one of them agreed that the WMD were there, that additional ones were being developed, and existing one's were being hidden. Blix was on the news last night saying that the only reasonable explanation for the behavior of Iraq during the inspection fiasco was that they were hiding WMD.

Maybe, but FYI: The leader of Russia (Putin) recently ripped Tony Blair a new a-hole when he visited Russia about the lies and BS that Britain and the US peddled as an excuse for war. The sad thing is, Blair's career is over because he trusted Bush. I guess that's his problem. But Bush just wiped out any credibility the US had with the world, and that's our problem.

As for Saddam hiding WMD's:

DUHHHHH! No kidding. Every body knew he had some bios and possibly nerve agents, but that was irrelevant to the reason Bush said we had to go to war NOW. He said (and so did Powell) that Iraq was within one year of detonating a nuclear bomb, even though CIA documents said otherwise.

If Saddam did have a bomb, he might be stupid enough to put it on a missile and shoot it to Israel. That argument for war has some merit. The problem is, it was all pure BS! There was no evidence of them having uranium enrichment equipment or even crude uranium to enrich. That's the whole point: if Bush lied about Iraq's nukes, his whole reason for war goes out the window. Bios and chems are not something that can plunge the world into WWIII, they are just weapons he can use to wipe out and intimidate the locals. They did not justify an invasion, they justified increasing the number of people inspecting and looking for them.
 
Ironic that so many are now calling for patience[\B] to 'find' the WMD's

When the 'anti-war' people were calling for the same patience before ignoring the UN and INITIATING a war.

The war was based on an 'immediate' threat. No time for patience! No time for more inspections!

So......

Isn't it only fair that the 'anti-war' folks get the IMMEDIATE gratification of found WMD's since there was an IMMEDIATE threat from Iraq?

How can a threat be IMMEDIATE if you cant identify/locate/show evidence of the threat?

sorry, didn't mean to get all logical on yous guys. :(
 
laughable

:p
i always say that i got to respect the man before i give any credit to his thoughts, and respect has to be earned.
good luck with your opinions and that thin skin.:cool:
 
This will turn out to be another WMD thread but I'm game.

"Ironic that so many are now calling for patience[\B] to 'find' the WMD's"

Well, no one is asking for patience, read my analogy because it's closer to true than you will ever be willing to believe or admit. The patience being asked for with UN inspections went like this: "Try to work this jigsaw puzzle." For 12 years the inspectors tried to work the puzzle and were kicked out without finishing the puzzle. How much patience and time is required?

"When the 'anti-war' people were calling for the same patience before ignoring the UN and INITIATING a war."

Have you ever looked at the UN's record? It kind of pathetic not to mention the UN has members in it that should be in prison not sitting on the boards and committees.

"The war was based on an 'immediate' threat. No time for patience! No time for more inspections!"

Again 12 years of inspections; how many more did you want? Especially since the first go round failed miserably.

"So......

Isn't it only fair that the 'anti-war' folks get the IMMEDIATE gratification of found WMD's since there was an IMMEDIATE threat from Iraq?"

Sure! Is twelve years long enough for that "instant gratification"?

"How can a threat be IMMEDIATE if you cant identify/locate/show evidence of the threat?"

Someone mentioned the Cuban missile crisis and strangely enough the strongest indictment of that were pictures of baseball fields I believe or maybe it was soccer fields can't remember which sports field they had pictured.

"sorry, didn't mean to get all logical on yous guys."

Don't worry. You didn't.

DRC
 
Well, no one is asking for patience

You sure about that? No one is asking for patience to find WMD's now? Wow. I stand corrected.

Have you ever looked at the UN's record? It kind of pathetic not to mention the UN has members in it that should be in prison not sitting on the boards and committees.

Sorry, I thought we (the US) were members of the UN as well. Silly me.

Again 12 years of inspections; how many more did you want?

Enough to identify some credible, immediate threat.

Sure! Is twelve years long enough for that "instant gratification"?

Sure! if you can click UNDO on the whole WAR thing.

Someone mentioned the Cuban missile crisis and strangely enough the strongest indictment of that were pictures of baseball fields I believe or maybe it was soccer fields can't remember which sports field they had pictured.

Hey, good job on the subject change. You got me.

Don't worry. You didn't.

Logic, it appears, is relative these days.
 
GAWD! We gotta attack somebody else! The water in Shrubs bowl is starting to slowly circle! Its amazing isn't it how prepared for a war the American people actually were. The knees already are starting to get rubbery. The last little "ruckus" lasted for 8 years. I hope Americans were really ready for this and didn't just believe all the hype that was spewed. By the way when will the troops be returning from the Balkans? Has it been one year in Klinton time yet? Each new generation of Americans never seem to learn from the mistakes of the last.
 
They started this war almost 2 years before the next election knowing that this "lie" would be exposed way before the election.

Maybe their "timing" was off. OR...... maybe they will start another war closer to election time for the "wartime" boost.

By the way when will the troops be returning from the Balkans?

Well, they'll be home by Christmas! Unless we need them on another meal on wheels/garbage collection/peace keeping/nation building operation before that. :D

Don
 
The Democrats and liberals feel it is now safe and long enough after 9-11 to start attacking President Bush and his administration. This is what they would be doing anyway regardless of the situation. This is what they'd be doing if 9-11 never occured since Bush's election. This is just the continuation of all the whining and Bush over all conservative hating. It has many forms. They're getting ready for the upcoming presidential elections so they have to start beating the drums now in preperation.

It is total hypocracy to cry for more time for U.N. inspectors and then claim that Bush lied while not giving us the "more time".


bountyhunter,

Before you make claims have proof. You can say whatever you want but those things you said haven't been proven. Can you supply readers of this board with real proof? I'd like to see it.


Did all you naysayers out there forget about September 11th?
There is a sense of urgency in this country like never before.
There are people out there who seek the destruction of the United States of America!

The left loves to spout the talk regarding "lies" and "warmongering", but for some reason the sense of urgency regarding 9-11 is never mentioned.

The question isn't wether saddam had nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons pointed at us. It is can the United States of America afford to take a chance?
 
WHOA!!!!!

I haven't seen this many pair of undies in a bunch since someone threw a handfull of rubberbands into the spin cycle....

A. Iran will resolve itself without the need for overt American intervention.
The new sherriff will be much friendlier to us.

B. The last 'inspection' regime by the UN (Blix & Co.) was not meant as a seek and find. They were to collect hardware, software and other evidence that the Baathists were supposed to freely give up. Instead, they played 3 card monty with Blix like he was a cabin boy from Stockholm, fresh off the herring boat. Whatever weapons were there are hidden in country, deployed to neighbors and friends or destroyed. We will find what we're looking for. The worst thing we can do now is back down/out.

C. This time next year, when there is a pro western gov't in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, we will find ourselves in a position of strength in that section of the world, able to bring leverage against Syria and Saudi Arabia, able to further marginalize the ever weakening former colonial powers of Europe, supplant Russian influence in the Near East and Indian sub continent and establish an eastern flank against China
(truly the next big dog that we will have to effectively contain or deal with).

D. The north Asian countries of the Pacific rim should carry the burden of dealing effectively with the North Koreans, though 60 years of brainwashing, national immersion in a psychotic cult of personality and the mental atrophy caused by epidemic starvation make them about as willing to negotiate as an amphetamine stoked biker who has just found a key scratch on his freshly painted Harley.

So, sit tight, work the knots out of your knickers, cut some cheese for that whine and watch the show. Teddy Roosevelt is laughing his fanny off and cheering. BULLY
 
Did all you naysayers out there forget about September 11th?

SIGarmed, that was conducted by al-Qaeda....right??? Headed by that Osama feller and his sidekick from the Taliban!

Were them fellers from Iraq? Or Iran? :uhoh:

Don
 
I thought George Orwell made people like this up.

And I thought tinfoil hats prevented people from believing everything the government does, which they disagree with of course, is actually a government conspiracy to take over the world.

In my opinion, the current "quagmire" in Iraq is due to the exact same reason riots, like the on in LA following the Rodney King verdict, occur. They know they can get away with anything they want to do with virtually no chance of being arrested. They know the US/UK troops are not going to open fire on them when they are amid innocents or are inside mosques.

The US/UK troops need to get strict with these guys. The only thing these people understand and respect is force. Yes, it will create negative publicity in the liberal press. The US needs to drop the politically correct "nice guy" stance and crack down on the lawless.

Until they learn the consequences of their actions are worse than the pleasure they get from those actions, our troops will be killed.
 
gburner...

Now THAT was a great post!:D
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"This time next year, when there is a pro western gov't in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, we will find ourselves in a position of strength in that section of the world..."
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This is why the shrieking from the left is so loud now...their window of opportunity is going to close up on 'em before long :eek:

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"So, sit tight, work the knots out of your knickers, cut some cheese for that whine and watch the show. Teddy Roosevelt is laughing his fanny off and cheering. BULLY"
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That has to be the most informed and pertinent advice I've seen on this board for a long time:D

It might even save Malone and DonQuatU from the apoplexy they're headin' for if they don't stop taking the lefty media so seriously:rolleyes:

"Cut some cheese for that whine and watch the show":) :p :) :p
 
SIGarmed, that was conducted by al-Qaeda....right??? Headed by that Osama feller and his sidekick from the Taliban!

Were them fellers from Iraq? Or Iran?

Don

This is what I'm talking about. Typical arguement.
 
Just a friendly reminder that differences of opinion are not a sufficient reason to start cutting into each other with sarcasm. A call to civility is hereby issued. Thank you!
 
Did all you naysayers out there forget about September 11th?

Sorry, for the the sarcasm, SIGarmed.

Do you think Iraq had something to do with the terrorist attack on 911?

Don
 
Ridiculous. It is funny that some people, when given a choice between the President of the United States and National Security Advisor or the enemy, will choose to side with the enemy. 50 years ago they would call it treason.
 
I don't want to contribute more than I have to the thread going further OT, but it seems to have devolved to the usual point. Some people were so traumatized and are in such rage and terror over 9/11 that they will never listen to anything questioning the judgement of our (mis)leaders. Another way the terrorists won that round.
 
All I have to do is juxtapose the current status quo against the paralysis that would have gripped us during a Gore presidency and I am just fine with the judgement of our current leaders. The lack of accurate memory of some about the the previous inhabitants of the White House is matched only by their dishonesty and impatience with the current inhabitants. Our current warrior stance has been a long time coming. We have not even begun to settle all of our grievances. Hang on, it's gonna be a bumpy ride.
 
All I have to do is juxtapose the current status quo against the paralysis that would have gripped us during a Gore presidency and I am just fine with the judgement of our current leaders.

Strange. I don't think anybody here expressed a longing for a Gore presidency!

Yes, I suppose things could be worse. But things aren't aren't going so well under our current administration either!

Don
 
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