Conflicting load data for W231 and .45ACP

[dihnen]

I've been reloading 9mm for a while now, and I want to start reloading 45ACP as well. I have Winchester 231 powder, Winchester FMJ 230gr RN bullets, and CCI large pistol primers.

My Lee reloading manual 2nd Ed. lists a min/max of 4.8 and 5.1 for W231 with this bullet. For Hodgdon 38 (which I understood to be the same powder) they list min/max of 4.2 and 5.3. Quite a difference! My 2002 Winchester load data manual from 2002 lists 4.9 and 5.7.

The Hodgdon website lists the following charges for a Hornady FMJ FP, 4.2 and 5.3 for both W231 and HP-38.

It seems like I'd be safe starting at 4.8 and not going higher than 5.1. But with the differences in load data, I was wondering if anyone had some other thoughts or other load data.

 

[LiveLife]

I really like 5.0 gr for 230/200 gr 45ACP - very accurate and clean burning but you should do your own test load work up from starting charge.

 

[918v]

5.3grs is a pretty standard load for the 45.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

dihnen,
My standard .45 Auto load for MANY years has been 5.5gr W231 under a 230gr LRN or FMJ bullet. If you look at the data on the Hodgdon site you will see an OAL of 1.200". I have no idea how they seat the bullet that deep and still crimp it well enough not to have the bullet fall into the case even though they are using a flat nose bullet. With that 5.5gr charge I use an OAL of 1.265" with a FMJ RN bullet. That charge is fairly common to the .45 Auto and with that OAL it's 100% safe. (as long as you do your part)

Of course, as with any load, you should start lower and work your way up to be sure that load is fine for your handgun. I would start @ 5.0gr and work up to 5.5gr just as long as you use the longer OAL and not 1.200" like Hodgdon uses.

I'm sure there will be a bunch of guys along shortly to verify that load.

 

[Steve C]

I've used 5.5grs with 230gr FMJ's and LRN's. With the FMJ's they chrono'd right around 800 fps for a full power load.

 

[dihnen]

Thank you ArchAngelCD, I was planning on a 1.265 OAL since that's what the factory ammo is that I've been shooting, and like you said, it should be safe. It seems that the starting value of 4.2 grains that the Hodgden site lists is really low, but I thought I would start there. Perhaps take a collection of 4.2, 4.5, 4.8, and 5.0 loads to the range and see how they shoot, as a way to get started.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

With the longer OAL that charge of 4.2gr W231 might not cycle the slide properly. Don't waste your time and components with such a light charge because you will not like the results. I would suggest starting with a charge of 4.8gr then working up by .2gr until you get to 5.5gr all the time looking for pressure signs. In this case you won't find any but that's always a good procedure to use. I would suggest making only 7 of each to try if you're shooting a 1911 or if not one full magazine full if your gun holds more. Like said by "Steve C" above, you will get ~800 fps from the 5.5gr load with the longer OAL which is full power, but not an overly hot load.

 

[Hangingrock]

I believe in certain reference material for bullet weights 225Gr/230Gr charge weights of (5.7Grs) of W231 have been specified. OAL for 225Gr/230Gr is dependent on configuration between shape examples such as the truncated versus the standard profile 230Gr FMJ.

It seems there is a consensus for (5.5Grs) charge weight of W231. Personally I’d start at (5.0Grs) and work up to (5.5Grs) checking functionality of the load for proper actuation of the particular pistol. Since you are I assume (ass-u-me) just punching holes in paper there is no crying need for more power than needed to function the pistol.

From my own perspective I’ve found certain pistols function better with (5.7Grs) such as the S&W4506 as opposed to (5.5Grs) for a Colt-XSE as an examples.

If you are dispensing powder charges from a measure by volume as opposed to weighing each charge there is going to be variances in powder charge volume thus weight thrown. One needs an acceptable plus or minus tolerance to avoid problematic functionality.

Even thou W231 and HP38 are recognized to be equals take a look at various manuals the charge weights are similar but not always the same. This variance is apparently the difference between powder lots.

I’ve used W231 for at least 20+ years and have been very satisfied. My other go to powder in the 45ACP is Unique.

 

[918v]

I have no idea how they seat the bullet that deep and still crimp it well enough not to have the bullet fall into the case

In semi-auto rounds, the crimp does not hold the bullet in place. Case tension does. You can seat the bullet as deep as you want without compromising bullet retention.

 

[rcmodel]

My Lee reloading manual 2nd Ed. lists a min/max of 4.8 and 5.1 for W231 with this bullet. For Hodgdon 38 (which I understood to be the same powder) they list min/max of 4.2 and 5.3. Quite a difference!

Old data in the Lee manual.

At one time WW-231 and HP-38 were two different powders, made & distributed by two different powder manufactures.

That changed several years ago when Hodgdon became the sole vendor for Winchester powder.

Today, WW-231 & HP-38 are coming from St. Marks powder in Florida, and Hodgdon packages both from the same bulk shipments.

So today, the data is the same.

Not the case back when Lee copied the data for the 2nd. Edition.

rc

 

[dihnen]

Well, I loaded up some test rounds today and I'll go to the range tomorrow at lunch time and see how they shoot in my gun. I have a COL of 1.265, and charges of 4.8, 5.0, 5.2, and 5.4 under Winchester 230 FMJ RN bullets. As soon as the recoil becomes snappy/loud and different from the factory loads, I'll stop, since at this point I'm only trying to duplicate factory. I'll also watch the spent brass.

Thanks, everyone, for the help and information. This forum is a valuable resource, and I hope to contribute to it as I gain experience.

Dave

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Dave,
Don't forget the range report!!

 

[GLOOB]

As soon as the recoil becomes ... different from the factory loads,

I load 'em to 5.3, and the recoil is different from any factory rounds I've used. It's a bit of a "small pop" rather than a "big push." I know that fast powders like TG and BE are the old standby, but to me, the slower Unique feels closer to factory than HP38.

 

[dihnen]

Range Report:

I took my test loads, and my Glock 21, to the range today. Since I don't have a chrono, my goal was to watch for signs of overpressure with the increasing loads, and to see if I could subjectively compare the felt recoil to some WWB factory rounds.

The bullets were Winchester FMJ 230gr, CCI primer, and W231 powder, 1.65 COL, in 4.8, 5.0, 5.2, and 5.4 gr loads. The closest felt-recoil to "factory" were the 5.2 grain loads. The 5.0 loads had softer recoil with less apparent muzzle rise, but also seemed to run the gun very well. I liked the way the 5.0's felt and they'd probably work well for target practice and shooting steel. All the loads had good accuracy.

Thanks, everyone, for your input!

Dave

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you like the 5.0gr load and it works in your pistol without issues you have found your load for that pistol. Good to hear you found something you like so quickly. Well done!

 

[rcmodel]

see if I could subjectively compare the felt recoil to some WWB factory rounds.

Perhaps a better measure would be where and how far it throws the empties.
Felt recoil is a very poor indicator, as different powder burn rates can really feel different while giving quite a bit more, or less velocity.

Maybe a better measure?
If you can find a load that stacks the empty cases on top of the factory load cases, you are getting awful close.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

I have no idea how they seat the bullet that deep and still crimp it well enough not to have the bullet fall into the case

Hodgdon, for some reason, uses the 230 gr Hornady flatpoint which seats a good deal deeper than hardball type roundnose. But then they seat a 230 gr lead bullet that short, too; with velocity within 2 fps and within 100 CUP.

Looking back at some of my old chronograph data, you will have to load at or above the current published maximum charges to equal factory velocity. Better to just go for reliable function and accuracy on target.

At one time WW-231 and HP-38 were two different powders, made & distributed by two different powder manufactures.

Where did Hodgdon get HP38? I always thought they bought it from Olin/Winchester and that data differed because their spec was a little different from Winchester's. There are no other Ball powder plants in the USA.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I loaded 231 years ago 45 acp...185 hp was the bullet... I looked at a loading I used and still have a few in a jar...7.1 was what I did I shot them out of autos and revolver...

This is a conservative link for loading...IMHO

http://www.reloadammo.com/45loads.htm

Regards

 

[Exposure]

For several years my go to load for for 45 ACP has been:

5.1 Grains W231
CCI LP Primer
230 Grain jacketed/FMJ bullet
Any case

This is a great load. Light recoil, good accuracy. More than enough power to cycle anything you might put it into. It is a winner in my book.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

At one time WW-231 and HP-38 were two different powders, made & distributed by two different powder manufactures.

Naaa, they were always the same powders, they are now admitting it. The differences in velocity between the 2 before were caused but different charge weights, seating depth and test barrel lengths.

 

[Jim Watson]

The differences in velocity between the 2 before were caused but different charge weights, seating depth and test barrel lengths.

I dunno.
There are manuals with different loads for HP38 and W231 presumably shot with the same components from the same gun or test barrel. Some of the older books have them half a grain apart. Later issues are closer and closer until now Hogdon says they are identical.

I think Hodgdon originally procured HP38 under a little different spec than what Winchester sold 231. Now they distribute both of them it is a lot easier just to fill all cans the same and apply whichever label they have a current order for.

 

[Harley Quinn]

This is a similar story of 2 powders being the same...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_50/ai_n6180926/

I got a call not long ago from a buddy who wanted to know the difference between Hodgdon H-110 and Winchester 296. He didn't want to believe me when I told him, "None." In fact he spluttered a bit, "But the loading manuals aren't the same," Yeah, I know sometimes life ain't fair.

 

[Hangingrock]

Taking a look at the current manuals 45ACP listing loads with both W231 and HP 38 for bullet style and weight:

Hornady 8th 2010 .3 grs difference at maximum (4) loads and .2grs difference at maximum (1) load .

Speer 14th 2009 3rd printing .1 grs difference at maximum (1) load

Lyman 49th 2008 .9grs difference at starting and .3grs difference at maximum (1) load

Sierra 5th 2003 list only W231

The Winchester 2006 guide 230Gr HDY FMJ FP at a charge weight of 5.3 grs COL: 1.200inch and the 230Gr LRN at a charge weight of 5.3grs COL: 1.275inch.

If one ignores the current Hodgdon data charge maximum recommendation of (5.3grs) other sources list 230gr (dependent on bullet style/material and COL) maximum charge weight range between (5.6grs/5.8grs)

 

[Harley Quinn]

I agree that many of the loadings are a bit lower, but probably within a range that will give good results and no safety issues...

If you are careful and want to go up a few notches that is what reloading is all about

I recall pretty high loading back in the 80s, primer flatness and ease of extraction (revolvers) were used to give results

Pistol primers flattened sooner so some went to rifle primers A few nice revolvers were ruined as I recall...

Regards

 

[Slamfire]

I load 5.5 grains W231 behind a 230 FMJ.

[SIZE="3"]Kimber Custom Classic M1911

230 W/W FMJ RN  5.0  grs 231 R-P cases WLP 				
10-Jul-05 T = 84 °F						
Ave Vel =	755.7					
Std Dev =	17.23					
ES	64.39				 	
High	784.8				 	
Low	720.4				 	
N =22

230 FMJ (GI)  5.5 grs W231 Mixed Brass WLP			
OAL 1.265" taper crimp .469					
4-Sep-05 T = 92 °F						
						
Ave Vel =	782.5					
Std Dev =	22.64					
ES	87.93					
High	822.9					
Low	735					
N =	28	

			
						
Colt M1911 Stainless,
				
230 FMJ GI 5.5 grs W231 Mixed Military  WLP1.265" OAL		
9-Oct-05 T = 64 °F					
					
Ave Vel =	792.4				
Std Dev =	15.87				
ES	70.15				
High	825.5				
Low	754.9				
N =24
[/SIZE]