Confusing appellate decision re: 2A and illegal aliens

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The article makes no sense, saying the judges concluded that the 2A applies to everyone, but we're upholding his conviction due to Federal law prohibiting illegals from possessing guns or ammo.

IMO, the 2A should not apply to illegal aliens.
 
Is the right to self-determination in self-defense a core human right or not? The Bill of Rights does not grant rights, which are recognized as intrinsic to universal humanity, so how could the 2nd Amendment not apply to our fellow man? It has been made crystal clear that humanity is not tied to citizenship in this nation, and I'd rather we don't trot down that path again.

What illegal immigrants do not have a fundamental right to is the unwelcomed presence within our territory and access to our resources; we shouldn't let our differences on that aspect of their illegal presence detract from the proper recognition of their humanity.

TCB
 
What illegal immigrants do not have a fundamental right to is the unwelcomed presence within our territory and access to our resources

This. It should be moot . Yeah, sure, they have a right to bear arms. They just don't have a right to be here.
 
So let's look at United States v. Meza-Rodriguez, 7th Circuit, No. 14-3271 (2015).

First, there nothing really new here. There are other cases in which courts have concluded that even illegal aliens can, under some circumstances, be entitled to the protections of the Bill of Rights. And there have been other court decisions which have upheld various of the factors enumerated in 18 USC 922(g) disqualifying one from possessing a gun or ammunition.

Background

As the 7th Circuit in its opinion outlined the background of the case (slip op., at 1 -- 2):
When Mariano Meza-Rodriguez, a citizen of Mexico, was arrested in August 2013, he was carrying a .22 caliber cartridge. But it was what he did not have— documentation showing that he is lawfully in the United States—that concerns us now. His immigration status made his possession of the cartridge a crime under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5), which prohibits foreigners who are not entitled to be in the United States (whom we will call “unauthorized aliens”) from possessing firearms. Meza-Rodriguez moved to dismiss the indictment that followed, arguing that § 922(g)(5) impermissibly infringed on his rights under the Second Amendment to the Constitution. The district court denied his motion on the broad ground that the Second Amendment does not protect unauthorized aliens. That rationale swept too far, and we do not endorse it. The court’s judgment, however, was correct for a different reason: the Second Amendment does not preclude certain restrictions on the right to bear arms, including the one imposed by§ 922(g)(5)....

Questions on Appeal

Meza-Rodriguez' appeal of the District Court's refusal to dismiss his indictment potentially raises two questions: (1) do the rights protected by the Second Amendment extend to unauthorized aliens (using the terminology of the Circuit Court); and (2) if so, is prohibiting unauthorized aliens from possessing a gun or ammunition a constitutionally impermissible regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment?

To respond to and rule on Meza-Rodriguez' appeal, the Circuit Court needed to address both those questions.

Do the Rights Protected by the Second Amendment Extend to Unauthorized Aliens?

The Circuit Court did not comprehensively answer that question. Rather it concluded that the rights protected by the Second Amendment extended to Meza-Rodriguez, and unauthorized aliens similarly situated. To reach that conclusion, the Circuit Court looked at other cases extending under some circumstances certain rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights to unauthorized aliens.

As the 7th Circuit noted (Meza-Rodriguez, slip op. at 9 -- 10, emphasis added):
...The conclusion that the term “the people” in the Second Amendment has the same meaning as it carries in other parts of the Bill of Rights is just the first step in our analysis. We still must decide what it means. The Supreme Court has spoken on this issue, albeit obliquely. In Verdugo-Urquidez, the Court determined that the Fourth Amendment did not protect a noncitizen brought involuntarily to the United States against a warrantless search of his foreign residence. See Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. at 274–75. In rejecting Verdugo-Urquidez’s position, the Court stated that “‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.” Id. at 265. Of interest here, the Court also said that “aliens receive constitutional protections when they have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country.” Id. at 271. ...

And with regard to Meza-Rodriguez' ties to the United States, the 7th Circuit notes (Meza-Rodriguez,slip op at 11):
...see first that Meza-Rodriguez was in the United States voluntarily; there is no debate on this point. He still has extensive ties with this country, having resided here from the time he arrived over 20 years ago at the age of four or five until his removal. He attended public schools in Milwaukee, developed close relationships with family members and other acquaintances, and worked (though sporadically) at various locations. This is much more than the connections our sister circuits have found to be adequate.....

Thus the rights protected by the Second Amendment extend to Meza-Rodriguez.

Is Prohibiting Unauthorized Aliens from Possessing a Gun or Ammunition a Constitutionally Impermissible Regulation of the Rights Protected by the Second Amendment?

And with regard to that question, the 7th Circuit concluded the disqualifying unauthorized aliens from possessing a gun or ammunition was a permissible regulation.

In sustaining the application of 18 USC 922(g)(5), the 7th Circuit found (slip op., at 15):
...Congress’s objective in passing § 922(g) was “to keep guns out of the hands of presumptively risky people” and to “suppress[] armed violence.” Yancey, 621 F.3d at 683–84 (citing S. REP. NO. 90-1501, at 22 (1968)); see also Huitron-Guizar, 678 F.3d at 1169–70 (§ 922(g)’s purposes are to assist law enforcement in combating crime and to keep weapons away from those deemed dangerous or irresponsible). One such group includes aliens “who … [are] illegally or unlawfully in the United States.” 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(5)(A). The government argues that the ban on the possession of firearms by this group of people is substantially related to the statute’s general objectives because such persons are able purposefully to evade detection by law enforcement. We agree with this position: unauthorized noncitizens often live “largely outside the formal system of registration, employment, and identification, [and] are harder to trace and more likely to assume a false identity.” Huitron-Guizar, 678 F.3d at 1170. Persons with a strong incentive to use false identification papers will be more difficult to keep tabs on than the general population. (Section 922(g)(5)(B)’s prohibition on firearms possession by most aliens who are lawfully present but who hold only nonimmigrant visas reflects a similar concern....

Discussion

Basically, the 7th Circuit could not resolve this case by refusing to extend the rights protected by the Second Amendment to unauthorized aliens. Were it to do so, it would have undercut existing and important legal principles extending certain fundamental, personal rights to persons who , "...have come within the territory of the United States and developed substantial connections with this country...."

However, several of the conditions listed in 18 USC 922(g) disqualifying one from possessing a gun or ammunition have been sustained at the Circuit Court level.

If this case were to go up to the Supreme Court the arguments would focus on the disqualifying condition and whether it passes the applicable level of scrutiny.
 
This. It should be moot . Yeah, sure, they have a right to bear arms. They just don't have a right to be here.

Id agree, sort of. They should certainly have the right to bear arms, in their home country. When they choose to become a criminal in this one, they should know they're also choseing to lose some rights as well, the 2A included.

It's really simple, don't want to lose rights, don't break the law.
 
Snyper said:
They got it wrong
njl said:
...IMO, the 2A should not apply to illegal aliens.
MachIVshooter said:
...It should be moot...
DeepSouth said:
...Id agree, sort of...
And all these comments about what folks think the law should be are irrelevant and off topic.

In the Legal Forum we discuss what the law is. Our purpose here is to better understand reality -- what the law actually is and how it works in real life.

So going forward stick to how things are in the real world. How you think things should be doesn't matter.
 
You are right Frank, I apologize.
It's just that at times the law is complicated, with conflicting rulings from different courts and such. Other times it is simply unjust, at least in people's opinions.
In the future I will try to keep my opinions to myself.

Again, my apologies to you and the OP.
 
So, basically, the lower court ruled correctly but for the wrong reasons?

What sort of crime is being an unauthorized alien? As in: felony, misdemeanor, etc? Does this set a new precedent on permissible restrictions on the 2A?
 
From one point of view the 2nd protects firearms but says nothing about ammo. So his deportation was the correct legal decision.
 
And all these comments about what folks think the law should be are irrelevant and off topic.

In the Legal Forum we discuss what the law is. Our purpose here is to better understand reality -- what the law actually is and how it works in real life.

I have to admit I get confused as to the purpose and intent of this forum. Is there room for discussion of Constitutional theory, and original intent or is everything except for discussion of prior case law from an attorney's perspecitive off limits? If there are conflicting court decisions, which decision is "reality"? Is a law uncontitutional only after the Supreme Court says so, or if the Supreme court decides a law is unconstitutional, does that mean it was unconstutional when it was passed?
 
** All this for having a 22LR round in his pocket. **

Prosecutorial discretion. Circumstances dictate when and how states attorneys pursue cases. There isn't a ton of context here, but obviously more was at play than just the possession of the bullet (ie the bar fight, etc.). If the desired result was to deport this person from the community, having a fairly black and white violation of a federal gun statute is certainly a good avenue to use.
 
TimSr said:
And all these comments about what folks think the law should be are irrelevant and off topic.

In the Legal Forum we discuss what the law is. Our purpose here is to better understand reality -- what the law actually is and how it works in real life.

I have to admit I get confused as to the purpose and intent of this forum. Is there room for discussion of Constitutional theory, and original intent or is everything except for discussion of prior case law from an attorney's perspecitive off limits? If there are conflicting court decisions, which decision is "reality"? Is a law uncontitutional only after the Supreme Court says so, or if the Supreme court decides a law is unconstitutional, does that mean it was unconstutional when it was passed?
Again, we discuss what the law actually is and how the legal system actually works. Discussion of constitutional theory and history, supported with appropriate reference and/or documentation, can help understand an argument made in an appeal or how a court has reached a decision. An unsupported personal opinion about how the Founders could not have meant "this" or "that" really doesn't.

Conflicting court decisions are a fact of life, and understanding how and why those come about, and that the law is one thing in one jurisdiction and another in another jurisdiction, are appropriate and useful. Discussion of conflicting court opinions can also help us understand how changing situations, facts or circumstances can produce different results in court.

And yes, a law is not unconstitutional except if and when a court says so. At the end of the day, law is all about what happens in court.

The reality is that most people have a sketchy understanding of the law because they have not approached forming an understanding in a rigorous, disciplined manner. Understanding the law requires some actual study (whether formal or informal). Much in the law is non-intuitive or will make sense only when one has sufficient background knowledge. You can't expect to be able to figure out what the law is or how it works just trying to "noodle it out."

Part of the difficulty reading laws and court opinions comes from a need to be familiar with the context -- where "law" comes from, what it is and how the process works. It might help to think of "law", i. e., statutes enacted by legislative bodies, constitutions and charters adopted by political entities to govern the operations of those entities, and past judicial opinions, as a tool used to decide the outcome of a dispute or disagreement. So when a court writes an opinion deciding a matter in contention, it is explaining how it applied the law to the facts and circumstances in order to decide the outcome.

  1. Courts decide cases, i. e., disputes. For example ---

    • You claim Fred improperly drove his car causing it to collide with yours, and now Fred must pay you compensation for the injuries and property damage you suffered.

    • You claim that your dead uncle Fred's will in which he leaves his millions to the Flat Earth Society should be set aside as the result of the undue influence of a conniving financial advisor. Instead, the disposition of his estate should be decided under the terms of a prior will leaving everything to you.

    • You clam that the contractor you engaged to remodel your kitchen didn't properly perform under the terms of your contract with him, and he must now reimburse you for the additional expense you incurred to bring in another contractor to complete the work right.

    • The State claims that Fred embezzled money from his former employer and should go to prison.

    • And in each case, the claim is vigorously disputed.
So understanding law helps us understand how courts will deal with matters that wind up being decided in court -- where the outcome of a particular dispute or disagreement will be decided. On one level that helps us makes decisions about whether or how to do things so that we can avoid ending up in court, or if we do end up in court we get a satisfactory outcome. On another level that helps us understand how to try to change things in a way to get what we would consider a better result in court under particular circumstances, e. g., by lobbying the legislature to change the law or by convincing a court it should rule in a certain way.
 
Don't have time to read everything but at first blush I would guess that the reasoning went something like this.

1. Bill of rights applies broadly to persons.
2. Statutory prohibition of illegal aliens withstands 2nd Amendment scrutiny.

Which I think is the correct decision and the status quo.

Mike
 
"The court’s judgment, however, was correct for a different reason: the Second Amendment does not preclude certain restrictions on the right to bear arms, including the one imposed by§ 922(g)(5).... "

Ohhh, now I get it. The RKBA applies to everyone, but banning possession of a single 22LR cartridge for legally-designated classes of people is one of those reasonable restrictions we should tolerate living under :)

Yeah, I'm gonna say the court got wrong this time. Or rather, that they grossly twisted Heller as is fashionable by countless municipalities these days while SCOTUS doddles in defending its earlier decision.

TCB
 
Arizona_Mike said:
Don't have time to read everything but at first blush I would guess that the reasoning went something like this.

1. Bill of rights applies broadly to persons.
2. Statutory prohibition of illegal aliens withstands 2nd Amendment scrutiny....
Nicely put and a good, concise outline of the ruling.

barnbwt said:
...Ohhh, now I get it. The RKBA applies to everyone, but banning possession of a single 22LR cartridge for legally-designated classes of people is one of those reasonable restrictions we should tolerate living under...
An emotional rant having nothing to do with the law or the case.

barnbwt said:
...Yeah, I'm gonna say the court got wrong this time. Or rather, that they grossly twisted Heller ...
Then let's see you defend that view with appropriate citations to Heller and other applicable legal authority.
 
Forgive me. I won't ask that you defend your out of hand dismissal over what I now see is essentially my inadvertent restatement of Arizona's two points (I never claimed to be original) in an attempt to understand the opinion's argument.

The ruling is what it is and the status quo. Status quo being we tolerate certain reasonable restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms. One of which is broad denial of the right to keep or bear arms (use or possession) to statutorily-defined illegal immigrants, despite the recognition of those person's intrinsic right to the same --that's where I'm confused by the argument. Seems contradictory. A similar set of restrictions on American citizens with an equal claim to the right (since we're just as human, if I understand correctly) would likely be considered extremely overbroad and an infringement. So why can it be applied to an entire class of people, created entirely by statute laws of a simple majority, and not be similarly overbroad? Because they're criminals, but not serious enough to be felons with rights disabled by the due process of their peers? Because they're Mexican?

The only way I can square the circle is by taking as fact that the RKBA does not apply to illegal residents, which would imply to me that the RKBA is not an fundamental right intrinsic to the human condition. But that was not the argument put forth (thankfully). They recognize the right for illegals, then proceed as if they do not possess the right to keep and bear arms. If I'm missing something, please enlighten...or just dismiss me out of hand again.

Once more, this whole issue is mooted if they'd just bothered to properly enforce any number of other applicable laws which would have removed this person under much less indeterminate authority. Yet another unexpected consequence of selectively enforcing laws; other less well-understood laws have to step up to take the slack, generating new precedent as they go.

"Then let's see you defend..."
Only if you get to grade my paper, professor. I did specifically take issue with the quoted passage, particularly with the old chestnut of "reasonable restrictions" that's been hanging over us and abused since Heller touched on the topic and didn't go much further. Always seems to be used in a similar hand-waving manner to support the status quo of the gun law in question. But suffice it to say that a total ban on possession of any firearms/ammunition on a large class of people defined by a poorly-enforced legal statute seems to go a good bit further than what has been put forth as a 'reasonable restriction' that does not otherwise impact the right broadly (background checks, safe storage laws, etc.). Were there only a few thousand illegal immigrants, I might agree that the total effect of such restriction isn't a significant infringement, although you'd still have cases of law-abiding American citizens being indirectly disenfranchised if a spouse/roommate/etc. was an illegal alien whom they did not wish to expose to possession charges. But we're talking millions of people here, who frequently have fully-American offspring, spouses, roommates, etc. who must forgo lawful ownership of firearms in the presence of the illegal alien to protect them from these (actually enforced) charges. It's the same situation as those adjacent to felons, only without the precipitating 'especially serious crime' put forth and accepted as justification for that restriction.

TCB
 
Don't have time to read everything but at first blush I would guess that the reasoning went something like this.

1. Bill of rights applies broadly to persons.
2. Statutory prohibition of illegal aliens withstands 2nd Amendment scrutiny.

Which I think is the correct decision and the status quo.

Mike

That was my take as well.
 
barnbwt said:
... I won't ask that you defend your out of hand dismissal over what I now see is essentially my inadvertent restatement of Arizona's two points (I never claimed to be original) in an attempt to understand the opinion's argument....
The difference is that Arizona Mike stated his points intentionally, succinctly, and objectively. You chose to add an emotional dimension, and that is good reason to dismiss your statement.

barnbwt said:
...Status quo being we tolerate certain reasonable restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms. One of which is broad denial of the right to keep or bear arms (use or possession) to statutorily-defined illegal immigrants, despite the recognition of those person's intrinsic right to the same --that's where I'm confused by the argument. Seems contradictory. A similar set of restrictions on American citizens with an equal claim to the right (since we're just as human, if I understand correctly) would likely be considered extremely overbroad and an infringement. So why can it be applied to an entire class of people, created entirely by statute laws of a simple majority, and not be similarly overbroad? Because they're criminals, but not serious enough to be felons with rights disabled by the due process of their peers? Because they're Mexican?...
All of which means what exactly? It certainly has nothing to do with what the law is or how courts make decisions.

The reality is that federal courts have already upheld subsections of 18 USC 922(g) including those which disqualify felons, unlawful users of controlled substances, persons convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, person involuntarily committed to mental institutions, etc., from possessing firearms and ammunition. Perhaps as Second Amendment jurisprudence evolves the Supreme Court will decide to directly address those disqualifying conditions. In the meantime, they continue to be enforced law.

barnbwt said:
...They recognize the right for illegals, then proceed as if they do not possess the right to keep and bear arms. If I'm missing something, please enlighten...or just dismiss me out of hand again....
The court recognized the applicability of the Second Amendment and the power of Congress to regulate the rights protected in a particular way.

barnbwt said:
...Once more, this whole issue is mooted if they'd just bothered to properly enforce any number of other applicable laws which would have removed this person under much less indeterminate authority....
Perhaps that is how you would like to see things done in your alternate universe. However, that's not how things are done here in the real world. And your flights of fancy and fantasy don't help us understand or deal with the real world.

We discuss what the law actually is and how it actually works in the real world. The rules in your alternate reality really don't matter.

barnbwt said:
...Only if you get to grade my paper, professor. I did specifically take issue with the quoted passage, particularly with the old chestnut of "reasonable restrictions" that's been hanging over us and abused since Heller touched on the topic and didn't go much further...
Hogwash.

It is well settled reality that the courts will sustain some regulation of constitutionally protected rights. There's nothing new or novel about that. And there is a considerable body of law looking at the various ways to assess when or if regulation will be sustained or not. Perhaps that's not the case in your alternate reality, but that is the case here in the real world.

What those of us who live in the real world are struggling with is finding how to effectively push back on regulations of the rights protected by the Second Amendment. Your flights of fancy and fantasy don't help there either.
 
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I did specifically take issue with the quoted passage, particularly with the old chestnut of "reasonable restrictions" that's been hanging over us and abused since*Heller*touched on the topic and didn't go much further.

The Supreme Court can rule solely on the issue before it; with regard to Heller, whether the comprehensive prohibition of all firearms is Constitutional, not the constitutionality of various regulatory measures.

The Heller Court's reaffirmation that the Second Amendment right is not unlimited, and indeed subject to reasonable restrictions, as is the case with other rights, is settled and accepted; the question therefore is which restrictions are reasonable and Constitutional, and which are not.
 
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