Confusion loading .45 with 5 grains tite group?

[Akeva41]

I started off loading 200 grain lead cast bullets with 5 grains of hodgdon Tite group. I switched over to Hornaday 230 grain FMJ and used the same amount of powder thinking that the bullets were the same weight so it would be ok. I got through 100 rounds of FMJ and took a break. I was looking for the min max on the current load and to my surprise it said 4.8 for a MAX on the 230 gn Hornady FMJ :banghead: . Before I pull a hundred bullets I wanted to see if anyone has shot the Hornaday 230 FMJ on 5 grains before and if anyone know how dangerous the load will be? Quick correction the lead casts were 200 grain....

 

[ojibweindian]

5.0 grains of Tight Group may not be a max charge for your gun. i've got a load that's a bit over published max, but there are no signs of over-pressure; no flat primers, pierced primers, excessive recoil, case bulging, or anything.

 

[Steve Koski]

Akeva,

Look at several manuals. Follow them. Running over-max loads is asking for problems. You may get away with shooting over-max loads, people often do. But it's not a wise practice.

Koski

 

[Akeva41]

Koski, trust me this was not an intentional over max I was just being lazy and not checking. I'm still new to reloading. I was jus wondering how much more pressure .2 grains would produce.

 

[ojibweindian]

I'm guessing that, at worst, you'd have a +p load.

 

[LiveLife]

What OAL did you use? The Hodgdon max load data of 4.8 gr is based on 1.200" OAL. If you loaded longer, say 1.250"-1.270", you may not have to pull those 100 bullets.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I was just being lazy and not checking. I'm still new to reloading.

I hope you understand how bad that sounds.

 

[bluetopper]

Go ahead and shoot them.
However I would stay away from Titegroup with cast bullets or spend time cleaning lead from your barrel.

 

[evan price]

I run 4.7 grains of Titegroup with lead 230-grain slugs in 45 acp. No significant leading and other than some scorched brass it is just fine.

I loaded some plated Rainier 230-gr bullets with 5.1 grains Titegroup as a +P load and they didn't show any pressure problems or fishbellies. iirc I was using 1.250" oal.

 

[Akeva41]

@ PO2 Hammer I'm not really worried about how it sounds. I'm either going to pull the bullets or shoot them. I'm just looking to get info from an experienced reloader on how "hot" a 230 grain Hornady FMJ loaded with 5.0 grains of Hodgdons Titegroup in .45 acp happens to be but thanks for your concern.

 

[Akeva41]

@BDS The AOL is 1.195

 

[Walkalong]

I'm not really worried about how it sounds.

I am sure he was just trying to help you understand that we need to check that sort of thing every time, especially when we are first stating out. Details are very important in reloading. It does have a little of that "oh my, this fellow is going to get into trouble one of these days doing that" sound to it. You did, after all, make two mistakes. Well, three. Bullet weight, not checking charge weight for new bullet, and assuming. Just be more careful is all.

 

[LiveLife]

The AOL is 1.195

Akeva41, this is The High Road and THR forum rules dictate that we put a disclaimer when posting heavy/over max loads.

Especially to those new to reloading, there are many variables (bullet diameter, bullet base (lead base, flat, concave), barrel bore diameter, barrel length, rifling type (standard land/groove vs polygonal hill/valley), OAL of bullet, primer ignition/duration, powder lot variations, powder burn pattern - pressure map, scale calibration/accuracy variations, etc.) that may further increase the chamber pressure. Even though reloaders "think/believe" they are using "safe" published max load data, depending on these variables, they could be well over the published max chamber pressures.

Since you are already .2 gr over max in powder charge and "below" the OAL used for the published max load data, you are on your own and risking damage to your pistol and body. A particular concern for me is that you are using Titegroup that has very narrow load range and you do not have much "buffer room" even when using within the published load data.

If it was me, I would pull the bullets - better safe than BOOM.

There are many that venture beyond the safety of published max load data only to start a new thread like, "Funny thing happened at the range and I need a new gun ... "

 

[Akeva41]

@ Walkalong I'm sure that was Po2's intention that is why I thanked him for his concern and I thank you for yours. @ bsd Thanks! I have put those rounds in my "things to fix" ammo box. I'd rather pull 100 bullets out of cases than my slide out of my face!

 

[Steve C]

i've got a load that's a bit over published max, but there are no signs of over-pressure; no flat primers, pierced primers, excessive recoil, case bulging, or anything.
_

The .45 acp is a low pressure cartridge with max SAAMI at 21K PSI and +P at 23K PSI. You will never see any of the typical "pressure signs" as listed above until you are way beyond typical magnum pressures in the 35K PSI + range. After all, a 44 magnum doesn't show pressure signs at a much higher pressure.

When you use over pressure ammo in the .45 you will see the cases thrown further and generally perceive more recoil. What you get is a gun that's battered, frame that's cracked, slide stop hole that's oblong, damaged barrel lugs and a framed that's preened from the extra slide speed and impact. This can be somewhat mitigated if you use heavier springs and recoil buffers but there's no free lunch and the life of the handgun will be shortened.

The .45 acp can be loaded a little beyond he book, generally without much danger to the shooter. I knew a guy in the 70's who routinely loaded 200gr Speer JHP (old style) on top of 10 grains of Unique because he liked how "flat they shot". When I saw him a few months later he had replaced his Colt commander with a new one.

 

[Steve Koski]

Akeva,

I've pulled 350 bullets due to a mental error before. 100 is no big deal. It'll help you remember to double/tripple check next time.

Even if your load is safe enough, it's best to pull 'em and drill good practices into your head.

Koski

 

[Akeva41]

That's what I was thinking when I put the rounds in the mistake box. I will absolutely double check before I start throwing powder every time!

 

[ojibweindian]

The .45 acp can be loaded a little beyond he book, generally without much danger to the shooter. I knew a guy in the 70's who routinely loaded 200gr Speer JHP (old style) on top of 10 grains of Unique because he liked how "flat they shot". When I saw him a few months later he had replaced his Colt commander with a new one.

@ Steve C

10 grains of Unique is WAY too brave for me. My Unique load is only a tenth of a grain over max. And it just so happens to be pretty accurate.

 

[Hondo 60]

Well Akeva41, it sounds like you learned a valuable lesson.
And on the bright side? It didn't cost you a gun, or an arm, or an eye ....


We all learn - some of us are lucky enough to learn BEFORE bad things happen.

Stay safe my friends

 

[psyshack]

Please do not tell my M&P .45 I feed it nothing but 230gn XTP-JHP's over 5gn of Titegroup @ 1.220 OAL.

 

[LiveLife]

psyshack, many of us have over max loads we have developed and shoot in our pistols but THR forum rules exist and mods want definite disclaimers when over max loads are posted.

Chances are, your load may or may not have reached the SAAMI max average of 18,000 CUP as Hodgdon's published max is listed at 16,700 CUP. But there are many who read THR H&R threads who are new to reloading and may not understand or appreciate the work/caution that's involved in using near max/over max published loads (some may not even know the difference between CUP and PSI). There are variations that exist in powder lot to lot, pistol to pistol, etc. And you didn't even mention the primer used in your over max load. All of these variables will affect the final chamber pressure obtained and we lack the precise measuring equipment to determine exactly where the chamber pressures are ... we are only left to "guess" where the chamber pressure might be using chrono'ed average velocities.

BTW, Hodgdon website clearly posts, "NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS" on every load data page.

 

[Bmac1949]

I would also consider what pistol I was using to shoot a slightly overloaded shell from. I would want to know that it could withstand the extra pressure. i definately wouldn't shoot +P in my CZ but I wouldn't hesitate to load max charges in my Colt CC. I haven't loaded any max charges as I'm staying towards the middle range on most everything I load for because the weapon is more comfortable to handle. Full loads in a .45 auto is isn't the easiest weapon to handle. That said I'd at least shoot a couple of them before I pulled them

 

[csbassplayer2003]

I switched over to Hornaday 230 grain FMJ and used the same amount of powder thinking that the bullets were the same weight so it would be ok..

Not to pour salt on a wound, but this isn't good thinking as well. Weight is just weight, the bullet shape and profile takes up a different amount of case space, so powder charges might have to be changed as well as pressure is also a function of air available (in addition to OAL). Check, recheck, and recheck again. I've learned the hard way (somehow got 454 casul brass trying to reload .45 colt, if it wasn't for the fact me and my buddies measure darn near every round, we wouldn't have caught it as they are very similar). I use the exact load you were using as my target load. I use a 200gr Berry's LFN over 5gr titegroup (might bump to 5.1) and it shoots nicely. Just pay attention to detail, reloading is as safe a hobby as YOU are.

 

[Akeva41]

Yup, got all that so far but thanks and also thanks a ton for saying "not to pour salt on a wound" and then going ahead and doing it any way.

 

[RhinoDefense]

You got called out on a potentially unsafe error in judgement. Accept it, learn from it, and simply move on. Trust, but verify.