Conicals for C&B Revolvers

[flmason]

Hi All,
Was debating the conical question for .44 cal. C&B revolvers. In this case I'm targeting a an 1858 Remington style.

The pro's as I see it are heavier bullet and the lube grooves.

The con's seem to be reduced accuracy? Seems that folks have a hard time getting them to load concentrically and straight?

Was wondering how powder charge needs to be adjusted? I'm thinking a 230 grain-ish conical should allow me to approach .45 LC black powder energy levels? But will the pressures be excessive at the tradition .45 load of 40 grains of fffg?

Seems at best the stopping power of the .454 round balls, based on the weight is going to be around .38 special levels. Nothing to fool with, but debateable for any larger game, I'd think.

What's the general feeling 'round these parts?

 

[arcticap]

Loading a larger bullet may mean less room for powder.

Leading up to & Post #15 is interesting regarding accuracy:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=403143&highlight=1858+conicals

This thread contains the dimensions of the Lee conicals:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=433403&highlight=1858+conicals

 

[Das Jaeger]

Shoot

whatever the gun likes , not what you think it ought to .
Some of mine shoot Buffalo Bullets well , conicals , some do not , and even the same brand guns and same models .
A round ball at 800 FPS will knock your pee pee in the dirt , nothin to laugh at anyway .
A properly shaved round ball entering the cylinder then the chamber is no longer round anyway , its a boat-tail semi-wadcutter head if you seat it well anyway .
Shove one in , back it out and lookkie , I am right !
I would try the Buffalo bullets and several different conicals in her and see what shoots best , and of course Round Ball . I like Swaged lead Hornady brand, but thats just me .
No shortage of Deer and bear have been takin out with round balls out of pistols , MINE , a non issue if you keep your shots clean and good and ranges respectable . If your having issues with the gun not being able to do the job , buy another gun , or get a conversion cylinder in the mighty 45 Colt .
Doing that though is only going to be slightly better than what you can obtain weight wise in the loose powder configuration anyway , and of course a much larger bullet selection in the 45 Colt too .
Here's the gun I use to reach out and touch Deer size game , Gang Bangers , and such . This one I shoot Remington Express loads out of with no ill effects , but I dont advise or condone such WartHog behavior, your on your owne if you try this on a lesser gun .

This one will rock and roll deer dead like . This is Pietta , the strongest biggest Repro made out of the three companies that make them .

Das Jaeger

 

[Ratdog68]

whatever the gun likes , not what you think it ought to .
Some of mine shoot Buffalo Bullets well , conicals , some do not , and even the same brand guns and same models .
A round ball at 800 FPS will knock your pee pee in the dirt , nothin to laugh at anyway .
A properly shaved round ball entering the cylinder then the chamber is no longer round anyway , its a boat-tail semi-wadcutter head if you seat it well anyway .
Shove one in , back it out and lookkie , I am right !
I would try the Buffalo bullets and several different conicals in her and see what shoots best , and of course Round Ball . I like Swaged lead Hornady brand, but thats just me .
No shortage of Deer and bear have been takin out with round balls out of pistols , MINE , a non issue if you keep your shots clean and good and ranges respectable . If your having issues with the gun not being able to do the job , buy another gun , or get a conversion cylinder in the mighty 45 Colt .
Doing that though is only going to be slightly better than what you can obtain weight wise in the loose powder configuration anyway , and of course a much larger bullet selection in the 45 Colt too .
Here's the gun I use to reach out and touch Deer size game , Gang Bangers , and such . This one I shoot Remington Express loads out of with no ill effects , but I dont advise or condone such WartHog behavior, your on your owne if you try this on a lesser gun .

This one will rock and roll deer dead like . This is Pietta , the strongest biggest Repro made out of the three companies that make them .




Das Jaeger

Otay... question for you your Jaegerness. Is this an 1858 with a conversion for shooting cartridged rounds and a barrel from a Bison? I've got two Piettas in 1858... an 8" NMA with steel frame and a 12" Bison with a brass frame.

If it is a conversion... what does a feller need to do to achieve the conversion?

 

[flmason]

@ Das Jaeger - Gotta say I like that jeweled cylinder, LOL! Reminds me of the dash of a '78 Trans Am, LOL!

Well, sure there's no doubt round balls can do the job and that once you seat them, they aren't round anymore. Having come from the smokeless side of the fence though, it's no secret that a conical should have better overall ballistics. Just look at what any high velocity rifle shoots.

The driver behind my investigation is the greater bullet weight and the fact that you can pre-lube the grooves of the conicals... reducing reloading aggravations somewhat.

 

[Voodoochile]

My Pietta NMA's will hold 30gr. FFFG Goex in it's chambers with a:

24 year old = .450 200gr. Lee Conical
2 year old = .456 220gr. Lee Conical

Now granted my older Pietta has a slightly less accuracy with the conical compared to a ball but only by about .5 - .75 inch.
My newer one with the 5.5" barrel I customized some with the intent of shooting conicals & it shoots the 220 grainers quite accurately, averaging a 2.5 - 3 inch group at 25 yards off hand.

To give you a comparrison of performance, I've recently chronoed my smaller Pietta & these were the results.
5.5" barrel.
30 grain FFFG Goex.
Remington #11 caps.
Lee .456 220gr conical.
718 fps.
254 ft. lbs.

Not quite .45 Colt but very similar to what a .45 Schofield load would do from that barrel lenght.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Oh Der RatDog68

She is the standard big long barrel model you can buy anywhere you can find one , $500 .
The Cylinder is the Civil War Era style conversion cylinder , no mods to gun that way , drop in drop out , like Clint Eatwood in Pale Rider ..
Cylinder is R and D from Fall Creek Suttlery , Jeweled obviously , about $300 and some change .
All the other work is mine on the gun , action job ,trigger , nothin fancy, just a KILLER gun with Zebra Wood grips ! She's seen blood , hee hee hee . No problem reachin out to 75 yards accurately with .45 Colt in her and still packin a whallop .

Das Jaeger , your NMA will handle the same load , probably , hee hee hee , feelin frisky ?

 

[Ratdog68]

She is the standard big long barrel model you can buy anywhere you can find one , $500 .
The Cylinder is the Civil War Era style conversion cylinder , no mods to gun that way , drop in drop out , like Clint Eatwood in Pale Rider ..
Cylinder is R and D from Fall Creek Suttlery , Jeweled obviously , about $300 and some change .
All the other work is mine on the gun , action job ,trigger , nothin fancy, just a KILLER gun with Zebra Wood grips ! She's seen blood , hee hee hee . No problem reachin out to 75 yards accurately with .45 Colt in her and still packin a whallop .

Das Jaeger , your NMA will handle the same load , probably , hee hee hee , feelin frisky ?

So? Any old ".44" BP... a conversion cylinder and no barrel swap to .45 will get 'er done?

Love the Zebra Wood. I want to do a riser out of it for a longbow. I've already done up a Bocote riser for an Argentine Osage longbow backed with bamboo. I may try to tackle making some grips too. The pix of your work is inspiring.

If it interests you... here's the build-along for my bow.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=894382

 

[Das Jaeger]

Let me know if

you need some Zebra Wood, I gota source that I can get good quality dry as bones , thick or thin any length , stuffs spendy though forewarning .
I have some layin here , how much do you need for your BOW ?

AND YES , any NMA from Pietta will fit the drop in drop out Piatte conversion cylinders , and same goes with Uberti or Eauroarms . The brands do not swap out , each manufacturer is different , allot different .
Nice par tis, you cna have 27 NMA's of Pietta , get one cylinder and you have 54 guns now . Awsome !
Yes , any cap adn Baller that has a bore that handles .451 to .457 as a standard loading they make cylinders for, including the massive Ruger OA .
They aint cheap , but they ARE fun .


Das Jaeger, am here to inspire, and thanks, I did my job then !

 

[Das Jaeger]

Awsome Bow work, good job !

I also have an excellent source for YEW .

Das Jaeger

 

[Ratdog68]

you need some Zebra Wood, I gota source that I can get good quality dry as bones , thick or thin any length , stuffs spendy though forewarning .
I have some layin here , how much do you need for your BOW ?

AND YES , any NMA from Pietta will fit the drop in drop out Piatte conversion cylinders , and same goes with Uberti or Eauroarms . The brands do not swap out , each manufacturer is different , allot different .
Nice par tis, you cna have 27 NMA's of Pietta , get one cylinder and you have 54 guns now . Awsome !
Yes , any cap adn Baller that has a bore that handles .451 to .457 as a standard loading they make cylinders for, including the massive Ruger OA .
They aint cheap , but they ARE fun .


Das Jaeger, am here to inspire, and thanks, I did my job then !

Hmmm... I'll keep you in mind as I get close to needing some Zebra Wood. I can access some close to my house... but, they're not always willing to sell to me in dimensions/quantities I want/need. I'll have to do some homework. If the SG of it is dense enough... I may opt to do a longbow out of it (limbs and all) and back it with Bamboo to reinforce it. So... the amount could vary considerably.

Thank you for the schooling... I'ma gonna make my buddy HURT now. He's gonna LOVE knowing he can have two types of guns with ONE gun. Hmmmm... my Bison has the brass frame... will it handle the loads of a .45LC offering for that conversion cylinder? Suddenly... I'm thankful that both of my 1858's are Pietta offerings. This is almost grounds for a happy dance... (I DID say "almost").

 

[Ratdog68]

I also have an excellent source for YEW .

Das Jaeger

Ok... we need to talk about wood sources now. I wanna do a yew bow. I have a Vine Maple stave curing/drying at the moment... have another stave of Osage Orange waiting to be born, another of Ipe to be backed with Bamboo.

This poor thread is quickly becoming hijacked... sorry 'bout that.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Hyjacking is perfectly acceptable to me

It may not be to the poster, we'll take our BOW talk to PM's if you want to discuss woods later .
BRASS FRAMES, OUT of THE QUESTION FOR CONVERSION CYLINDERS , DON'T EVEN THINK IT , Bend , Strecth , break , nope , not good .
Your good to go on your standard Pietta steel , happy dance, still in order !
I have found Buffalo bullets load realy well into Pietta cylinders, better than conicals, easier to line up straight and get started , threade salvaged !


Das Jaeger

 

[Ratdog68]

It may not be to the poster, we'll take our BOW talk to PM's if you want to discuss woods later .
BRASS FRAMES, OUT of THE QUESTION FOR CONVERSION CYLINDERS , DON'T EVEN THINK IT , Bend , Strecth , break , nope , not good .
Your good to go on your standard Pietta steel , happy dance, still in order !
I have found Buffalo bullets load realy well into Pietta cylinders, better than conicals, easier to line up straight and get started , threade salvaged !


Das Jaeger

Thanks for the confirmation of my suspicions. The brass framed Bison will only get the mild loads for .44 BP C&B only. Grassy Ass Ameeego.

 

[Voodoochile]

I was about to mention about the Brass Frame no no for catridge conversions but it was mentioned.

BUT never fear there is a solution if his Ratdogidness is willin & capable to acept the challenge...

Contact Taylors & Co. http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/index.tpl & they can sell you a steel frame to switch out your 12'" cannon barrel so that it too can have the pleasure of both C&B & Catridge.

Not exactly but a member of our sister forum http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/ told me he had done just that between a brasser buntline & a steel standard model.

 

[flmason]

No worries, been wanting to do a self bow myself, too.

Been considering the "American Flat Bow" Design. Not sure when I'll ever get to it, but have been studying the topic.

Began with the idea of recreating a simple cross bow, but figured, if the draw weight is going to be light, why bother with the complications of a crossbow action?

A 'nam Vet I once worked for mentioned he'd done a crossbow while he was over there. I'm guessing it was modeled on the Hmong style.

Anyway, the aggravations involved in creating a lock seem unneccesary to me. (The envisioned scenario being... "how can I make it if I'm stuck in the woods?) Never have quite figured out what commonly available things would make a good string though.

Did a lot of research on spinning, fiber, etc. But unlike 'Nam, there's not really anything like bamboo that's just "everywhere". So the string seems to be the hard part.

 

[Ratdog68]

I was about to mention about the Brass Frame no no for catridge conversions but it was mentioned.

BUT never fear there is a solution if his Ratdogidness is willin & capable to acept the challenge...

Contact Taylors & Co. http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/index.tpl & they can sell you a steel frame to switch out your 12'" cannon barrel so that it too can have the pleasure of both C&B & Catridge.

Not exactly but a member of our sister forum http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/ told me he had done just that between a brasser buntline & a steel standard model.

You KNOW... yer a dog !! LOL Thanks for the source... got it saved to favorites list.

 

[Ratdog68]

No worries, been wanting to do a self bow myself, too.

Been considering the "American Flat Bow" Design. Not sure when I'll ever get to it, but have been studying the topic.

Began with the idea of recreating a simple cross bow, but figured, if the draw weight is going to be light, why bother with the complications of a crossbow action?

A 'nam Vet I once worked for mentioned he'd done a crossbow while he was over there. I'm guessing it was modeled on the Hmong style.

Anyway, the aggravations involved in creating a lock seem unneccesary to me. (The envisioned scenario being... "how can I make it if I'm stuck in the woods?) Never have quite figured out what commonly available things would make a good string though.

Did a lot of research on spinning, fiber, etc. But unlike 'Nam, there's not really anything like bamboo that's just "everywhere". So the string seems to be the hard part.

Well... you MAY enjoy that link I posted. As it so happens, that build along was for an American Flat Bow I built.

The Vine Maple bow stave I have curing is going to be of the same basic design, but is intended to be a self-bow. The riser section is checking fairly heavily, so I'll have to cut it off and graft back on some more Vine Maple wood (from the same tree trunk/parts I cut) with some epoxy. The same overall basic build steps will apply, sans the bamboo backing portion.

As I recall... the English used linen for their longbows' strings. The Flemish Twist type string would be the easiest to create for a period correct design build. I'm doing my bow strings out of Dacron B-50 which I bought from 3Rivers Archery... I also bought their string making DVD and string jig.

How's the itch doin' now?

 

[Voodoochile]

No worries, been wanting to do a self bow myself, too.

Been considering the "American Flat Bow" Design. Not sure when I'll ever get to it, but have been studying the topic.

Began with the idea of recreating a simple cross bow, but figured, if the draw weight is going to be light, why bother with the complications of a crossbow action?

A 'nam Vet I once worked for mentioned he'd done a crossbow while he was over there. I'm guessing it was modeled on the Hmong style.

Anyway, the aggravations involved in creating a lock seem unneccesary to me. (The envisioned scenario being... "how can I make it if I'm stuck in the woods?) Never have quite figured out what commonly available things would make a good string though.

Did a lot of research on spinning, fiber, etc. But unlike 'Nam, there's not really anything like bamboo that's just "everywhere". So the string seems to be the hard part.

Most any tree fiber can be twisted into a good working string, pine saplings are supprisingly strong for this but possibly only for 1-3 shots on a strong enough bow to take on a large game animal, but then after that you'd have plenty of Sinew to make a better string..

You KNOW... yer a dog !! LOL Thanks for the source... got it saved to favorites list.

As long as I'm fed every once in a while & acknowledged I'll be a faithful dog..

Flemish twist is fun & easy to make, I can have one made for any of my Recurves in about 30 or so minutes.
If you can make a Flemish twist bowstring, you can make Cordage in nearly any survival situation.

 

[Ratdog68]

LOL I unnerstan' (yer Voodooness).

 

[flmason]

Man Das Jaeger, I'd like to have that one with a shoulder stock, for sure.

 

[flmason]

Oh yeah, I sat down and did a a Flemish twist or two using of all things... notebook paper twisted into cordage, just to get the idea down.

Eventually I'm going to have to go out and see if I can find something to serve as a stave and give the bowmaking part a try out.

 

[flmason]

Ah well, the itch is on hold 'till some career issues settle down. The economy is beating me up. But definitely been using the time for study of the process. Seems like making good arrows in the field may be the bigger challenge. (Well after making good cordage anyway.)

 

[Das Jaeger]

flmason , you aint the ony one that would like to have that gun shoulder stocked , I would too . I just need to come up with a design that will not harm the grips or demoliish the entigrity of the metal too .
With the tight R and D cylinders it spits very littel lead off the forcing cone , wouldn't mind this set-up in my face . Cap and Ball , well , not so much .
Good luck on your Bow adventures and learning it , way to go .

Das Jaeger

 

[flmason]

Hey VoodoChile,
So do I read this right? The diameter of the chambers on the Piettas grew by .006 over the years?

The Lee molds I've been looking at for conicals seem to be the 200 gr. .450 jobbies. I guess that's OK if they are hollow base and expand? To be honest, not sure what the actual land and groove diameters are in my '58 yet. Still waiting for the box to arrive.

Pietta is reccomending .454 for the round balls. So I have to believe that a .456 conical would be a little on the tight side. Are those getting shaved off?

In any event, I was hoping to come as close to the .45 LC load of 250 gr. ball and 40 gr. BP. (Granted stuffing 40 gr. into the '58 may be impossible, and not reccomended or lot allow sufficient seating depth? More realistically thinking the 200 gr. conical and 28-35 gr. of Pyrodex P.)