Considerations when reloading the NATO 7.62 case

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FOGeologist

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I've shot some of the ZQI 7.62 ammo you get at Wal-Mart out of my new AR10, and did not find it to be too accurate. I bought it largely because the cost of the brass was about the cost of the loaded rounds, and I needed some rounds to "shoot in/sight in" my new rifle.

So I've tumbled, cleaned, deprimed, re-sized, treated pockets, trimmed/chamfered/deburred and tumbled off the lube from these rounds, and reprimed them with some Winchester LR primers. I'll be loading them with either X-Terminator and some 168-grain Barnes bullets, or maybe I'll use Varget...

I still have to buy an optic for the rifle, so there's no point in working up too much of a selection of loads.

What are my considerations for reloading the NATO case over a .308 Win case? I know the web's a little thicker. Maybe down-load 4-5% (so start 14% below max and make the new max 4-5% below SAMMI pressures)?
 
The AR10 tends to be more fickle with ammo IMHO. My DPMS G2 likes the heavier match grade bullets. I have pretty much settled in with the 168 gr SMK.
I'm also seeing better accuracy with IMR4064, Varget 2nd and IMR4895 is 3rd. I'm also finding the Varget to be more temperature sensitive.
Just like any reload start with a smaller charge and work your weigh up.
I think I'm at around 42.5 of IMR4064.
 
I've had good experience with the 165gr Sierra Game King for a very accurate "general purpose" load.
The Match Kings shoot a little better, but cost more and don't preform as well on targets tougher than paper.
I'd start with them, unless it's solely a target rifle.
In which case, I recommend the 168gr or 175gr Match King
 
Thanks for the responses!

I thank you all for the responses.

I'll start low and work up - I have seen in the past little difference in NATO 5.56 shells and .223 Rem. I have a standard load I've worked up over the years (a couple, actually) that run just a tad slower than Federal, and produce reloadable brass without hammering the gun, and with fine accuracy.

I've never loaded .308 for a gas gun before. I did try with a PTR-91 about 8 years back but could not bring about any decent accuracy. I got .3 MOA results with a .308 Remington 700 SPS about two years later. I loaded some .30-'06 for the Garand I sold that produced beautiful groups (this after $1200+ tuning by Clint Fowler) so I have faith I can do something good with .308 again.
 
Just The Usual

I'd say there's just the usual considerations with the brass. Lake City military brass tends to be a bit thicker and you'll lose some capacity, with other headstamps that will vary.

In an AR-10 variant, I'd start out with the 168 grain MatchKings, and try 4895 powder (either Hodgdon or IMR). It tends to work well, and your max charge is limited by how much will fit in the case.
 
ZQI brass actually has more case capacity than US made NATO brass. As a matter of fact, when I measured 6 different brands of both commercial and military .308 brass using H2O, ZQI has the most capacity by a good margin.

I have ~100 in my inventory that I've yet to load so I can't say how they'll do. I will echo your experience in their factory loading. When I run them thoroug my M1A they are horribly inaccurate. Cheap is about the only thing they have going for them.
 
If you end up buying LC brass online by the hundred lor thousand, which is not a bad deal btw, expect it to be machine gun fired. I had to use a small base die to get it to function. After a decent amount of brass prep, primer pocket swaging, small base resizing, trimming etc i had a batch of 20 LC cases I fired 7 times out of a RRA LAR8 and saw around 1 moa, any issues were me. After 7 shots i scrapped the brass, but it showed no signs of wear, just didn't want to risk it.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
The ZQI brass will not hold up for long. Its pretty soft.

My advice is to purchase actual Lake City 7.62 brass. It will last alot longer. Decap, decrimp, size and trim it. Take the load data and drop 1-2 grains off the max charge. Youll thank yourself later.
 
Maybe down-load 4-5% (so start 14% below max and make the new max 4-5% below SAMMI pressures)?

The idea of starting loads takes into consideration allowing for different cases and other variables. No need to start below starting loads. Though not a problem with H4895, you can run into problems when you drop below starting loads with some powders. If you are using one that says start at 10% below max, that's the safest place to start.
 
I've shot some of the ZQI 7.62 ammo you get at Wal-Mart out of my new AR10,

Gas guns are more finicky about ammunition than bolt guns. My advice for reloading for an AR10 is

1. Full length resize in a small base die

2. Trim cases

3. Clean primer pockets, ream to depth

4. Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find.

5. Use IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 powders.

6. Seat the bullets to magazine depth, no longer than 2.8 for the 308, shorter is fine.



There are some who say small base dies are not needed in these rifles, the Gunwriter Mike Venturino has been one. For years he has been saying in print that only standard sizing dies are need. But in the July 2012 issue of Guns Magazine, he is testing an M1a and a AR10 and his reloads are too tight. I find it humorous to read of him beating the bolts open with scrap lumber. Ha, Ha.

If you attempt to small base size with a spray on lube you will stick the case in the die. I recommend RCBS water soluble or Imperial Sizing wax. These are excellent lubes.


For these rifles it is safety critical to ensure that all primers are below the case head. Reaming primer pockets to depth is a good idea. Seat the primers by hand, and verify that all of the primers are below the case head. There is a chance that a cocked primer, with the anvil firmly seated on something, will cause a primer initiated slamfire. One poster swaged his primer pockets, which shaved brass donuts into the pocket. He left the donuts in the pocket, which resulted in high primers, and his AR10 slamfired in battery. Clean those pockets! A high primer can cause a slamfire but only if the anvil is firmly seated. High primers are one of the most common cause of misfires because the primer won't fire unless the anvil is seated and is pushed up into the primer cake. This is worth reading: Mysteries and Misconceptions of the All Important Primer

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

However, given a shallow pocket it is theoretically possible that high primers could slamfire, given debris in the pocket, you can get a slamfire.
Because SKS’s slamfire so often, there are lots of slamfire reports with SKS’s, Murray’s has a firing pin modification to reduce the chance of slamfires. Also, the SKS boards has this excellent “A primer on primers”

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0



Federal primers are the most sensitive primer on the market and the most "slamfiring" primer in Garands/M1a's. I have lots of web accounts of slamfires with Federal primers so I don’t recommend them in gas guns. I recommend CCI #34's and Tula7.62 primers as they considered "Mil Spec" primers. Which means they are less sensitive than commercial primers, federal being the most sensitive commercial primer on the market

Use powders that are close to IMR 4895 in burning rate or just use IMR 4895. High port pressures are the concern. High pressures will create excessive bolt open acceleration. The NRA used to recommend powders that have burning rates between IMR3031 and IMR4320. This includes powders such as IMR 4064, and Winchester 748. I believe the first choice of powders are IMR 4985, H4895, AA2495. In the 308 I have used a load of 168 grain Sierra Match, 41.0 to 41.5 grains IMR4895, LC cases, and CCI #34 primers OAL 2.800 for years.

Don’t go to the reloading manual and use the maximum loads listed in there for your gas gun. You do not want to be anywhere near maximum loads. Your rifle will be ripping the case heads off your rounds. You are limited by your gas system and generally speaking, don’t push a 150 faster than 2650 fps, a 168 faster than 2625 fps, and a 175 faster than 2575 fps. Slower is fine. My velocities are from 22” barrels, if you are shooting a 20” AR10, the velocities should be about 50 fps less . Function is more important in this mechanism than speed. So, as a general rule, cut your loads. Test over a chronograph.

A bud of mine went straight to the maximum loads of the manual with his AR 10 and I was out at the range helping knock cases out of his gun with a cleaning rod. I got him to use 41.5 grains AA2520 with a 168 hunting bullet and he has been one happy camper. He has been getting head shots at 300 yards and it kills the deer dead. He won’t show me the picture of the deer with its brain on hollowpoints, but the 308 knocked it dead, dead, dead.

Check cartridges for case head separation. Gas guns are hard on brass: the bolt unlocks while there is still significant chamber pressure. Because of this the case gets stretched on extraction. Carefully inspect cases for stretch ring marks at five reloads. They occur about .4” of an inch ahead of the base. You can verify if the cases are internally necking by inserting a bent paperclip in the case, and feeling for an edge. The useful lifetime of a case is determined by case head separations, case neck splitting, or primer pocket enlargement. When any one of these failure mechanisms happens to a case, it has exceeded its operational lifetime. In my experience, US military brass holds up better than commercial cases. But this is a broad generalization. You want to use heavy cases over light cases.

I full length resize for function. For a gas gun you must full length resize your case. I recommend small base dies. The set up instructions given with sizing dies assume a lot of things. And seldom following the instructions do you ever get the brass sized to the correct length. If possible you would like to set back the case shoulder about .003” from chamber headspace. In no circumstance do you ever want to size it more than .006” as you are likely to get a case head separation on the next firing. Just take the instructions that the factory sends with their dies, and toss out the part that tells you to size to the shellholder. Or shellholder plus a ¼ turn. You will find that such guidance is inaccurate at best, rubbish on the average.

To properly size cases to a correct length you will need a new piece of equipment that has not been mentioned: case gauges. I really like the Wilson type case gauge. You size your round and drop it in the gauge. This gauge measures the distance between shoulder and base. It is a "go" and "no Go" gauge. And it is a true measurement, as I have dropped my chamber headspace gauges in my wilson gauges and found perfect agreement between them. You want to size your case between “go” and “no go”, and for my rifles, for my gas guns I size everything to gauge minimum.

2efc9e5c-abf1-4993-b015-6c20b4ccf20c_zpsloognp6b.jpg

ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg
This web site is really useful for showing how to use case gauges. I recommend looking at the pictures, and it explains the special case gauges needed for the belted cartridges.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

The midsection of the Wilson gauge is cut big. It only measures headspace. What the Wilson type gauge and the other functionally equivalent gauges do not measure is "fatness". This is an important measurement for gas guns and should be controlled. You do not want any resistance to bolt closure due to overlong cases or over fat cases. It is a safety consideration for gas rifles with free floating firing pins, it is a reliability consideration for the other few actions.
I recently purchased this Sheridan cartridge headspace gauge and I think it is neat with the port and all. Importantly, it is cut with a minimum SAAMI reamer so the thing is basically, a rifle chamber. If your cases are too fat or too long, this gauge will tell you if you have an interference fit.
30-062020Sheridan20Engineering20case20gage_zps6873xiiy.jpg
 
Wicked awesome reply!

Clearly lots of stuff to think about when reloading the .308 for gas gun usage.

I may purchase a case length gauge to examine my shells. My primers are Federals, but after reaming, I got them to seat deeply. The empty shells are chambering, but seem a little sticky on extraction.

We shall see.
 
Reloading the NATO 7.62mm: basically Mil-Spec cases, Winchester LRP, R15 powder and 168Gr or 175Gr HPBT bullets. Dies Redding competition and Redding powder measure.

I still have eighteen (20) round boxes of 7.62 XM118 LOT LC 12010 1963 Match with the open base 173Gr FMJ. Over the decades I shoot a box here and there to see if aging of the ammunition is problematic. Just my own un scientific experiment.
 
All great information from Slamfire. Heed his advice and you should be fine. I load for a Rock River LAR-8 (.308) and it has a long, long barrel... a heavy 26" to be exact. I've tried all kinds of powders and bullets, with some unanticipated results. My most accurate loads are coming from IMR-4064 and my particular rifle simply loves the Nosler 155 grain Competition bullet. Anything lighter than 150 grains and my groups grow to about twice the size. I tried some of the SOST 130 grain bullets that Midway had for a while, and it was like shooting a shotgun. The .308 doesn't like them at all, but my Tikka in .30-'06 seems to, so it wasn't a total loss. Most of all, have fun working up a load!

Edit: all my loads utilize once-fired military brass and I've had no problems with it. Small base dies as well.
 
Check cartridges for case head separation. Gas guns are hard on brass: the bolt unlocks while there is still significant chamber pressure. Because of this the case gets stretched on extraction. Carefully inspect cases for stretch ring marks at five reloads. They occur about .4” of an inch ahead of the base. You can verify if the cases are internally necking by inserting a bent paperclip in the case, and feeling for an edge. The useful lifetime of a case is determined by case head separations, case neck splitting, or primer pocket enlargement. When any one of these failure mechanisms happens to a case, it has exceeded its operational lifetime. In my experience, US military brass holds up better than commercial cases. But this is a broad generalization. You want to use heavy cases over light cases.

I full length resize for function. For a gas gun you must full length resize your case. I recommend small base dies. The set up instructions given with sizing dies assume a lot of things. And seldom following the instructions do you ever get the brass sized to the correct length. If possible you would like to set back the case shoulder about .003” from chamber headspace. In no circumstance do you ever want to size it more than .006” as you are likely to get a case head separation on the next firing. Just take the instructions that the factory sends with their dies, and toss out the part that tells you to size to the shellholder. Or shellholder plus a ¼ turn. You will find that such guidance is inaccurate at best, rubbish on the average.

To properly size cases to a correct length you will need a new piece of equipment that has not been mentioned: case gauges. I really like the Wilson type case gauge. You size your round and drop it in the gauge. This gauge measures the distance between shoulder and base. It is a "go" and "no Go" gauge. And it is a true measurement, as I have dropped my chamber headspace gauges in my wilson gauges and found perfect agreement between them. You want to size your case between “go” and “no go”, and for my rifles, for my gas guns I size everything to gauge minimum.

I agree with most of what Slamfire said, but will throw in my 2 coppers.

Alot of wear and tear on a large frame AR can mitigated by simply tuning the gas system using an adjustable gas block and the proper buffer and spring. This will prevent a ton of case stretch and case failure and make the gun easier to shoot accurately because it delays the bolt opening too soon and helps avoid the pressure spike. Doing this also reduces wear on the rims of the cases. Ive seen some AR10's that are so overgassed, they nearly rip the rim off the case. Ive seen it even with some AR15's that have a short gas system, and are using long burning powders.

I agree fully, a heavy case like Lake City will stand up to a gas gun better. Expect 2-3 firings of a commercial weight case thru an AR10. Thats it. You might get more, but your biggest failure will come from primer pockets loosening. Because LC brass has a thicker web and wall, it will stand up alot longer. I have LC that has 8 firings through my bolt gun. Granted this is a bolt gun, but I push some pretty stout loads thru these cases and have had no issues. My 308 brass is sorted by firings. When I get 500 pieces that have all been fired, I decap and tumble them all in stainless media, pull 50 cases out and check the web with a paper clip. If they pass, I size and trim, and load. If they dont, I scrap the entire lot. Lake City is cheap enough I dont feel bad doing it, and unless your shooting something like F Class where it needs to be perfect, the brass will probably be more consistent than you are.

You do need to full length size everytime for a semi auto. I dont believe in using small base dies though unless the chamber on you gun requires it. It just over works the brass. With my Hornady dies, I have no issues, and Im running a very tight chamber. Start with a standard die from a quality manufacturer, if it works, dont change anything. If it doesnt, then buy the small base die.

A word of warning for Lake City 7.62 cases, they will size very hard the first time. They may even take 2 passes, once without the expander, then a 2nd pass with the expander in. You HAVE to use a quality case lube like Imperial, or lanolin based spray lube. I just use 12:1 lanolin based homebrew, and have had no issues. Starting out with a small base die will make this even harder!

Case gauges are a good tool. But Ill be honest, I dont own any. I loaded about 8000 rounds last year. I simply using the tighten die to shell holder or plate and give it a 1/4 turn. Unless you are specifically setting shoulder length for a reason, which on an AR10 you probably are not, its likely a waste of time.
 
Of all the calibers I reload, the .308 seems the most likely to stick in a sizing die. If something doesn't feel right, stop; take it out, put some Imperial on it and go again. I have read on the internet (so it must be true) that 42.7 of IMR 4064 with a 168 Matchking mimics the Federal Gold Medal Match. Your mileage may vary...
 
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