Considering buying an AR15 type rifle, advice?

[amprecon]

I am anxiously awaiting the delivery of my very first AR rifle. I have always held the AR platform in disregard, firstly because of its political conception, secondly because of its caliber and lastly because of its direct impingement gas system.

The only reason I even considered an AR was because of my overwhelming desire to join the 6.8spc bandwagon. I had decided that a piston driven gas system was the way to go, and after doing much research and searching I had my mind set on a Robinson Armament XCR. But as piston AR prices are about $400 more than your run-of-the-mill DI AR I decided that I could probably overlook my bias against it and jump on board.

So I began researching the best most affordable DI AR in 6.8spc. I understand that mid-length or longer gas systems seem to have softer recoil, a less violent recoil impulse so I narrowed it down even more. What it came down to was either the 20" DPMS or Rock River Arms 16" Mid-Length and as the 6.8spc seems to perform well out of short barrels it didn't take long to make up my mind for the RRA.

For as long as I've disliked AR rifles, I don't remember ever waiting for anything as anxiously as I am waiting for this one.

 

[Quentin]

I just saw this on another forum and it's so true. Really applies in this discussion. Most of the advice given here is applicable for the person giving it but may not work for others.

What AR should I buy?

Purchasing an AR is a lot like buying a car. There is a lot of personal taste involved. Some may like one thing, and some may prefer another. That being said, you must understand that what we will all post in response to your question is opinion based not only on experience, but also on personal preference. You must ultimately decide for yourself and not blame any one if you follow a recommendation and don't really like it...

 

[taliv]

that is true, but all opinions are not created equal

 

[gasteffens]

I have read a lot of great well backed opinions on this forum. I am now excited to order one and start practicing with it. I think I will buy one ready to go as my first and use it as a learning tool and then eventually build a custom one down the road.

 

[WYcoyote]

I have read a lot of great well backed opinions on this forum. I am now excited to order one and start practicing with it. I think I will buy one ready to go as my first and use it as a learning tool and then eventually build a custom one down the road.

Great idea.
You will have a blast.
I just started with ARs about 18 months ago ( day after the election!) and don't know what took so long.
Really like the ergonomics and accuracy.
They blow away my old Mini-14.
You can use the first one to build on.

 

[leadcounsel]

Welcome!

I have a CMMG AR15 rifle and it's great.

Another semi-auto rifle in the $500+ range that is fantastic is the AK47!

The most overlooked piece is ammo. Buy ammo in bulk and practice practice practice.

 

[gasteffens]

I stumbled onto these, I wonder how they compare to the star15 I am considering??

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifles_s/2.htm

I like that they come with two mags, a sling, and a cleaning kit whereas the star 15 does not. Hmm...

 

[Quentin]

Del-Ton makes a good rifle, certainly on par with DS. I would suggest looking hard at a midlength gas system, chrome lined barrel and 5.56 chamber.

For the AR I built last year I used a Del-Ton lower parts kit and buttstock. Got them for a great price locally and they worked out fine in my S&W stripped lower.

 

[desidog]

I just ordered a 20" middy upper from Bravo Company this morning about 11.30 - I just got a UPS tracking # email @ 1630...can't beat that service!

 

[Jolly Green]

If you save up a little extra you can push for a Rock River Arms entry tactical or National Match (around $1000 but can be had for much cheaper used). They are renown as reliable and accurate (1 moa "guarantee").

My only other advice to you is to truly understand why you are purchasing a gun. Once you know that, you will have a clear goal to achieve and wont waste money on superficial items.

For example: too often I see "target shooters" at the range with lights/lasers/and-god-knows-what-else on their rifle who cannot even hit a target at 100 yards (in a previous post i mentioned a guy and his friends who spent 130 rounds w/ a sig556 and hit the target once).

Pick what you want to do and stick with it. Unless you plan on doing 3-gun or HD, your gun should not be accessorized like a barbie doll. But in all do respect, this is only my advice which is in no case should have a significant bearing on your decision.

 

[kamagong]

The good news is that we're in the golden age of ARs. Quality has never been better, variety never greater, or prices lower.

The bad news is that your choice is more difficult because of all the options. Not all ARs are created equal, and it can be a challenge determining which one meets your needs. Do you want a carbine or a varmint rifle? Only you can decide that. I suggest you buy the best you can afford, the price difference between an okay and an excellent AR is not that much.

 

[RP88]

a Del-Ton M4 with the chromed 1x7 twist barrel option is a good buy. Make sure to save your money and skip on the BCG to save 70 bucks that you can put towards a milspec BCG. Then, have the end properly staked. If you do that, you have an above-average AR for maybe only 600-700 bucks down. But, if you can save an extra 200 bucks, a BCM upper and BCG, and a built lower will be the best top-tier value you can get.

However, if you simply want a plinker or a varmint rifle, a 1x9 twist 20" upper or a bargain bin CMMG will work great for their price point.

 

[gasteffens]

What's different between the 'carbine' and 'varmint'? I don't know what BCG stands for either... I am looking at the doublestar and the del-ton ones right now, and I just found an uncle of a friend of mine is a very knowledgeable FFL, so I am set there.

 

[benEzra]

What's different between the 'carbine' and 'varmint'? I don't know what BCG stands for either... I am looking at the doublestar and the del-ton ones right now, and I just found an uncle of a friend of mine is a very knowledgeable FFL, so I am set there.

A carbine is a small, compact, relatively lightweight rifle. When speaking of AR's, an AR with a 16" barrel (or a 14.5" barrel with permanently attached brake to bring the overall length up to the legal minimum 16") is often called a carbine. Carbines are better suited for a home-defense role than a 20" or 24" barreled rifle with a full-length shoulder stock would be, and as a result they are often set up with lights and unmagnified optics.

A varmint rifle would be a rifle configured for varmint hunting (i.e., hunting small agricultural pests like prairie dogs and groundhogs and relatively long range), and would often be set up with a heavy match-grade 20" or 24" barrel, big scope with relatively high magnification, heavy stock, bipod, etc.

BCG is generally "bolt carrier group", i.e. the bolt carrier assembly, consisting of the bolt carrier, bolt, and firing pin. Next to the magazine, the bolt carrier group is the single biggest determining factor in AR reliability.

 

[gasteffens]

Okay I get it, I am not too familiar with abbreviations quite yet.

Well, I was hoping to do some outside target shooting and some varmint shooting if the opportunity arises, and use it for home defense if need be. Which would be decent for both? Or is that a bad question?

 

[benEzra]

One of the great appeals of the AR-15 platform is that it is so customizable, but all the choices out there does make it a good idea to think through your options before you buy. For a do-everything rifle, something in the 16"-18" range with a flattop ("A4") upper and an adjustable (M4-style) buttstock would be my preference. You can put a scope on it and do target shooting or varmint hunting, or you can put a light on it (and a 1x optic, if you want) and use it for HD and general plinking. It won't be quite as accurate as a dedicated long-range target/varmint gun, but it will be much more versatile.

So for an all-around rifle, I'd want something configured sort of like this (speaking of the basic overall setup, not the particular parts):

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bi...-lrb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=

Don't let the suggested price scare you; that's a top-grade rifle (a Noveske 16" Recce with a midlength gas system) using a lot of top-grade components, but you can get similarly configured rifles at any price point using cheaper components, and like I said anywhere from 16" to 18" barrel will be pretty handy.

The nice thing about a carbine set up like that is that you can use it as-is with the existing iron sights (the rear sight folds, though this setup can also be had with a fixed rear), you can easily add an optic, you can adjust the stock length with the press of a lever to accomodate either shooting from a bench or moving in tight quarters, etc. so it is pretty versatile. I'd put a rail segment on the front sight base for a flashlight, although if you want to pay more you can get forends with rails already attached.

Downmarket a little, here's a 16" midlength Rock River Arms rifle in similar configuration (if you omit the optional "carry handle" and get a folding rear sight instead):



On a tight budget, you could come pretty close to that configuration with a 16"-18" bargain-bin rifle, flattop upper, adjustable stock, and order the rear sight separately, and possibly be in the $700 range. The higher-end rifles will be more durable and reliable under very hard use, but with good maintenance and quality magazines the lower-tier rifles can work fine, too.

As far as inherent accuracy goes, a 16" barrel is no less accurate than a 20" or 24" barrel of the same quality. What the long barrel provides is velocity, although moving the sights further apart can make shooting with iron sights a little more precise; there is no accuracy difference when shooting with a scope or an optic, although the extra velocity results in a little less drop at range and a little less wind drift. The downside of the longer barrel is weight, and of course the longer rifle is also a more unwieldy.

 

[gasteffens]

Fantastic reply, and thanks for taking the time to type all that out.

I think the 16" will be great. I plan on getting a bolt rifle in 30-06 in the future for my long range shooting, so short to medium range will be just right for this one.

I plan to buy new and keep it somewhere near $700. I have horrible luck buying ANYTHING used, such as a 'bargain bin' gun. Everyone can have positive reviews. I guarantee I would be the one to get the dud. Happens to me with just about everything.

I will try to find one that comes with a decent warranty too. I would like to get a reflex style optic and a flashlight on it down the road. Iron sights will be fine for a while as I get used to the gun.

 

[gasteffens]

I came to find the brand "spikes tactical". They seem to be pretty good too?

I also have been reading and there are two types, DI and Piston type ARs. I found a neat moving diagram video that shows the difference, but I have not seen any that indicate if they have one or the other.

Every time I start to research a particular brand and get to the point where I think I made my decision I find another discussion that compares it to another brand that compares closely.

Oye! On a positive note I received a random check that was a reimbursement for some work I did last year, that I totaly forgot about. So it has been added to my AR savings fund.

 

[gasteffens]

I am pretty much going to get a kit from Del-Ton and put it together myself to save a few bucks and learn how they work a little bit.

I called them up to ask a few questions and have a real polite knowledgeable woman help me out. I also sent an email a few days ago and got a nice reply today. It looks like it will be a little wait for it, but so far the treatment I have received will make it worthwhile, especially with a lifetime warranty.

 

[Quentin]

Sounds like good ol' Southern hospitality. I miss NC.

I would stick with DI, the piston just adds cost, complexity and incompatibilities.

 

[RP88]

I am pretty much going to get a kit from Del-Ton and put it together myself to save a few bucks and learn how they work a little bit.

Look into what I said earlier about getting a BCM BCG over the stock one and staking the extension.

The Del-Tons have plain-Jane bolts and do not have staked gas keys. If you ever want to give your AR a real workout, you'll want to look into replacing it eventually.

 

[gasteffens]

Sure thing, and with regards to the piston, how do I know if it has one or not? I only ask because I have not seen that part indicated in any of the descriptions for the rifles I have looked at.

 

[benEzra]

I came to find the brand "spikes tactical". They seem to be pretty good too?

Spike's Tactical is a good brand. Maybe not quite as highly regarded as Bravo Company, Noveske, Colt, LMT, and a couple others, but it's also not quite as expensive. Owners of Spike's rifles tend to be very pleased with them, from threads I've been in.

I also have been reading and there are two types, DI and Piston type ARs. I found a neat moving diagram video that shows the difference, but I have not seen any that indicate if they have one or the other.

In my opinion, a piston AR is not any better than a DI AR of the same price. It is true that a piston AR will likely be more reliable under adverse conditions than a DI AR with the cheapest parts and a bottom-of-the-barrel bolt carrier assembly, but once you get into the $1500+ range where most piston AR's live, DI AR's are pretty darn good.

with regards to the piston, how do I know if it has one or not? I only ask because I have not seen that part indicated in any of the descriptions for the rifles I have looked at.

There aren't all that many AR's with piston uppers, so when a rifle has a piston, it is usually the primary selling point and will probably be prominently described as such.

Every time I start to research a particular brand and get to the point where I think I made my decision I find another discussion that compares it to another brand that compares closely.

There is a huge variety of good choices out there. A lot of it, in the end, boils down to personal preference.

 

[gasteffens]

RP88, I took a look at BCM's website, and all the "BCM" titled BCGs are for full auto... is that safe to swap into a semi gun? The BCGs they have are titled "CMT." is this still a BCM?

Thanks so much!


Benezra, thanks for clearing that up for me!

 

[RP88]

Sure thing, and with regards to the piston, how do I know if it has one or not? I only ask because I have not seen that part indicated in any of the descriptions for the rifles I have looked at.

open it up.

On the outside, the forened will not have a natural tapered shape to it

on the inside, you'll see what looks like a piston channel and the bolt design will look pretty radical compared to other Ar bolts.

RP88, I took a look at BCM's website, and all the "BCM" titled BCGs are for full auto... is that safe to swap into a semi gun? The BCGs they have are titled "CMT." is this still a BCM?

perfectly fine. The FIRE CONTROL GROUP is what makes a gun full-auto - at least properly in an AR/M-xx series rifle.

The full-auto carrier is designed to have more mass and a longer butt-end in order to make cycling at such a fast, often violent rate easier on the action. It also shrouds the rear of the firing pin in order to protect against hammer wear.

But no, dropping an M16 carrier into an AR will not make your gun magically shoot more than one bullet at once. In fact, I really don't see why all bolts aren't full-auto carriers to begin with; no one has told me what the advantage of an AR/semi-auto carrier is.

And I just look at BCM's bolt section: you have LMT, BCM (Bravo's own BCG), Daniel Defense, and CMT.

CMT makes a lot of AR parts. In fact, they are probably the biggest supplier of stripped lowers and lower parts kits; a lot of parts kits and lowers out there are mostly re-branded parts from other wholesale suppliers like CMT. They probably also have a 'bargain bin' line of batch-tested, lower-standard (but still fine quality) stocks, barrels, etc. that they sell to other makers. In all honesty, usually only the top-tier, high-dollar companies make most of their own rifles. The rest buy bulk from wholesalers, test them how they see fit, and put them together themselves along with their own logo and serial number stamped on it. That is how it was explained to me anyway, in regards to why not all ARs are created equal - and CMT's name comes up a lot when discussing that fact.

LMT and Daniel Defense are well-known AR makers that make great products; they are, like BCM, considered gold standard/top tier makers. Any of those bolts (along with CMT's) will serve you well. I just say BCM because that is what I got and use and have yet to use any others. But, if they are properly staked on the gas key, shot peened, HPT and MPI tested, then you're fine to grab any of them.