Consistency

[Steve S.]

A philosophical question; should what we usually call an accurate firearm be more properly labeled a consistent firearm. My mind tells me that consistency is what produces small groups - accuracy is a product of consistency and not necessarily the reverse. My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

 

[danez71]

A philosophical question; should what we usually call an accurate firearm be more properly labeled a consistent firearm. My mind tells me that consistency is what produces small groups - accuracy is a product of consistency and not necessarily the reverse. My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

.... unless it consistently shoots patterns instead of groups.

And, if it consistently shoots small groups not with POA, I wouldn't call that accurate, myself.

 

[TarDevil]

My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

Yes, those are my thoughts.

 

[bdickens]

Consistency and accuracy are not the same thing. Just like precision and accuracy are not the same thing.

 

[Boomholzer]

A philosophical question; should what we usually call an accurate firearm be more properly labeled a consistent firearm. My mind tells me that consistency is what produces small groups - accuracy is a product of consistency and not necessarily the reverse. My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

More technically in the realm of precision and not accuracy. They are mutually inclusive terms. A precise rifle can be accurate and consistent. An accurate rifle can be imprecise.
The beauty of small arms is.. us. Enter the largest variable.

A philosophical question; should what we usually call an accurate firearm be more properly labeled a consistent firearm. My mind tells me that consistency is what produces small groups - accuracy is a product of consistency and not necessarily the reverse. My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

I think you were already on that page.

 

[bassjam]

My Marlin model 60 will consistently give me 1-1.25" groups at 50 yards. Doesn't matter what ammo I feed it, it's consistent with them all and none are really better or worse than others.

On the other hand my CZ 457 is very accurate with certain target ammo, but isn't accurate at all with other ammo types including some target ammo. It can be accurate, but it's ammo picky and not what I would call consistent.

 

[Riomouse911]

Hmm, interesting question.

A gun may be very accurate with some ammo and awful with others, especially (for whatever reasons) rimfires. Others eat all sorts of ammo and spit out nice groups across the board.

To me, if a gun is good with whatever I feed it, the gun itself is consistent.

If it shoots lights out with one or two particular loads but not with others, the good load/rifle combos are whats “accurate” (and, most likely, they’re consistently assembled too).

Just my idea of what these words mean to me in this context, YMMV.

Stay safe.

 

[Reloadron]

I can tell you and show you a little cartoon of how I see the accuracy thing:


Simply put and as mentioned already I see accuracy as unbiased precision. As depicted in Group #2 above is what I label as precision while accuracy is defined in Group #3. Precision is a high measure of repeatability as I see it. Damn, I like cartoons. Consistency is what I want when I hand load ammunition for match shooting. I want all of my loads to be consistent in addition to grouping well in a given rifle.

Ron

 

[Archie]

I agree with consistency being the better part of accuracy. A consistent arm will fire the same loads to - within certain pre-determined standards - the same place. Then it is the responsibility of the owner/shooter to properly adjust the sights to make that small group of shots to arrive in the desired location (center of the X ring, f'rinstance) at a specific distance.

I've had far too many shooters (who should know better) tell me their gun wasn't accurate. Upon conversing with the individual, all the shot holes are reasonable close and in a more or less 'round' configuration, but several inches away from the mark. So I explain the concept of adjusting the sights. Depending on the shooter's experience, I vary in my tolerance and tact level. (God and I are working on it.)

Sometimes the explanation moves into the realm of brass drifts and files when 'fixed sights' are under discussion. A pedant's work is never done.

Some guns are just poor in the accuracy department. I remember a friend's FN High Power. It would group nicely in a Queen size bed sheet (unfolded) at 50 yards. The rest of the story: It had NAZI acceptance stamps, the finish showed it had been "run hard and put away wet" probably for a lot of the Second World War and it functioned well. It was a collector's piece, no reason to 'fix' it.

 

[CherokeeGunslinger]

Big think make head hurt.

One could make a semantical argument about things, sure. The way I see it, a gun's "accuracy" is a measure of how tight a group it can shoot as a result of how well-made it is. "Consistency" just means a measure of the MOA through multiple groups. No need to adopt a different label when everyone understands what "accuracy" means.

As for accuracy in relation to the shooter's ability, I can see the argument for using the term "consistency" instead of accuracy, but then again, "precision" would be more fitting than "accuracy," too.

 

[denton]

A couple of people have posted the widely used definition.

If the firearm routinely shoots small groups, it is precise. Precision is getting the same result every time you apply the same stimulus.

A firearm is accurate if the long term average of many shots is at the intended target. A well sighted-in SKS might be very accurate, but probably not very precise.

Lack of precision is harder to fix. But if you're trying for a firearm that will help you win a competition, precision is where you have to start: good barrel, proper bedding, consistent ammunition, solid bench rest, etc., and above all, excellent shooting skill.

Once precision is attained, then getting accuracy is easy: crank the elevation and windage on the scope.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A philosophical question; should what we usually call an accurate firearm be more properly labeled a consistent firearm. My mind tells me that consistency is what produces small groups - accuracy is a product of consistency and not necessarily the reverse. My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

Part of understanding words and their meanings is understanding how to use them and how not to use them. A particular concept or idea isn't necessarily a part of every conversation.

On the other hand, consistency, accuracy and precision are different. If you mean "consistency", use consistency." If you mean "accuracy", use "accuracy." If you mean "precision" use "precision." Why use "consistency" if you mean "accuracy" or "precision"? Why use "accuracy" if you mean "precision" or "consistency"? Why use "precision", etc.? If you don't know the difference, learn the difference. Not knowing something really isn't a virtue.

1. "Consistent" means:

   1. agreeing or accordant; compatible; not self-contradictory:...
   
   
   2.constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.:....

   
   
2. Since here we're really discussing "accuracy" and "precision" in technical terms and are interested in their proper, technical usages, let's look to a technical source for definitions.
   • From the site Science Notes:

     Accuracy
     
     Accuracy is a measure of how close your experimental measurements agree with known values. The closer your measurements are to the known value, the more accurate the measurement....

     
     

   • Precision
     
     Precision is a measure of how close your experimental measurements agree with each other. The closer each measurement is to the other measurements, the more precise your measurement....

   
   
3. The CVs of the writers may be found here

So --

1. If you shoot a small group, but the holes aren't at your point of aim, that's precision.
   
   
2. If you shoot a small group, and the holes are very close to your point of aim, that's accuracy (and precision, since we assumed a small group).
   
   
3. If you do that every time (or nearly every time), that's consistency.

Confucius said, "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name." I'll opt for wisdom.

 

[JFrank]

A philosophical question; should what we usually call an accurate firearm be more properly labeled a consistent firearm. My mind tells me that consistency is what produces small groups - accuracy is a product of consistency and not necessarily the reverse. My mind sometimes overthinks the simple things - your thoughts?

In bench rest sanctioned matches we have both group and agg awards, so a accurate rifle with a good tune can set a world record if the stars align but a 6 target agg will show accuracy and consistency by the tuner as well as the rifle shooter combination.
The answer is defined for us.

 

[ACES&8S]

As bassjam has referred to.
Not as philosophical as it is in the basis of the question.
My model 29-2 in 8"is accurate with any ammo or reload I have tried in it year after year consistently.
But the model 29-10 in 6" has only one load it will fire thru it accurately.
I even put a scope on the 29-2 which makes it -almost- perfect.
My Remington model 700 Tactical bull barrel in 223 will consistently be accurate with
any ammo I have tried except for FMJ.
Then the CZ 527 in 22 hornet was very hard to find a couple bullets & loads that
stayed accurate consistently.

 

[film495]

the other element is design outside of mechanical accuracy/consistency - ergonomics I guess you would call it. how well does the design of the firearm, support or enable the shooters ability to be consistently accurate. trigger, lop, sights, feel, weight, balance, barrel length, overall fit to the shooter.

 

[d31tc]

Random reward I believe is why people keep golfing. When golfing, let's say they randomly hit 1 out of 10 shots and that shot hits the sweet spot and just sails, landing exactly where you want it. With nods of your head and internal gloating, you think, "Imagine how good I would be if I could be 'consistent'." Yet, you fail to acknowledge that you ARE consistent. You consistently hit 9 out of 10 someplace other than intended. It's the 1 out of 10 though that keeps you coming back. So, as generally stated above, consistency isn't always a good thing.

 

[Boomholzer]

^^ True.
One must remember to keep that score card or that one <0.5" 3-shot group on a mech rest, for prosperity..
...and the internet

 

[WisBorn]

My Model 94 30-30 consistently hit a paper plate from a offhand shooting position at 75 yards.
That's how I practiced with it, and I loved that it dropped every deer I shot at with it