Constitutional Carry Is It A Good Idea?

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Do those instructions tell you the conditions under which you are allowed to use deadly force in self-defense in your state? Or how the conditions differ for defense of others? Or under what conditions it is legal to use deadly force in defense of property?

The rules of carrying a gun for defensive purposes are different in every state, and they go far beyond just knowing how not to accidentally shoot someone. Why would you possibly object to legal gun owners being given the knowledge that just might keep them out of prison for the rest of their lives?

Firearm safety ≠ CCW safety. Legal CCW compliance requires a whole different knowledge base that can vary wildly across state borders. I think people should have easy access to that knowledge. What’s your argument that they shouldn’t, other than the tax dollars one which we’ve already dismissed? Remember, this whole conversation is not about people owning guns, it’s about people carrying guns.

Again, I'm absolutely positive the revised code for your state is available online look in Lexis Nexis. I know it is for Colorado because I've read it if you can't be troubled to do that you're not going to do it if somebody hands you the law book
 
Again, I'm absolutely positive the revised code for your state is available online look in Lexis Nexis. I know it is for Colorado because I've read it if you can't be troubled to do that you're not going to do it if somebody hands you the law book
And I am absolutely positive that it’s already packaged in a much friendlier video narrative. I know that because I took the course back in 1997 when I got my permit. People will watch a video and learn from it much more readily then they will dig through the KRS. Since the training materials already exist there’s not a valid reason not to make them available.

if you want people to learn things you have more success by making it easy for them. Understanding your states self-defense laws shouldn’t require one minute’s extra effort than necessary. It’s not some sort of worthiness test where only the purest shall pass. I want the dumb and the lazy to understand the law as well.
 
The problem I see with suggesting training and learning about safe gun handling and the law as it pertains to deadly force, rather than requiring it, is that many many people think they already know everything.

Ask people to prove it with a written and practical test, and there is no doubt in anyone's mind, including their own, as to what they do and don't know.

It's why we have driving license tests, forklift and overhead crane certifications, SDS training, etc. So people aren't a danger to themselves or others through ignorance.

As to what other constitutional right we'd apply testing and licensing to? What other constitutional right is so immediately dangerous to innocent bystanders? Is a rogue religion or idea going to "get" somebody as they walk by? Of course not. Is a person's right to privacy going to "accidentally" go off and send a bullet into someone else's toddler? Not likely. Let's apply some of that super power known as common sense.

What I expect from most people, is that they think they know exactly what they're doing. Even if they have no idea. You'd think with all this knowledge in the palm of our hands, that no one would be willfully ignorant. My experience has taught me otherwise. I'm sure yours has too.
 
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OK, Soo, Punish the 99%?
Where did I say anything about "punishing the 99%"? What I'm suggesting is that we voluntarily reduce the amount of carrying, in hopes that this reduces the cultural climate of violence. This has nothing to do with more laws. Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive.
 
Where did I say anything about "punishing the 99%"? What I'm suggesting is that we voluntarily reduce the amount of carrying, in hopes that this reduces the cultural climate of violence. This has nothing to do with more laws. Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive.

The type of people inclined to violence, are unlikely to adopt your suggestion. And everyone else who simply wants to be able to defend themselves from people willing to commit violent acts upon others, probably isn't going to think that's a good idea for them either.
 
It sounds like you're asking gun owners to preserve their rights by declining to exercise them
Well yes, I guess that's more or less what I'm saying. Just because we have rights doesn't mean we have to exercise them. Take freedom of speech, for example. If everybody exercised their freedom of speech to the limit, we would have a much more vulgar and unpleasant society. So self-restraint is the corollary to rights and freedoms. The way I see it, the Bill of Rights is a series of safety valves, that's there to be invoked when needed, but should not have to be invoked routinely. And abusing rights is a good way, politically, to get them eventually taken away. Already we're hearing calls to repeal the 2nd Amendment. It won't happen anytime soon, but that day will draw nearer in proportion to the number of shooting incidents. Are we at a tipping point? Not yet, but we're getting there.
 
So your belief is that we as gun owners should have the right to carry, but not exercise that right. There is a saying "a right not exercised is a right soon lost"
The history of the 2nd Amendment, itself, refutes that last assertion. When I was in law school, in the 1960's, the 2nd Amendment was treated as a dead letter, and not worth discussing. (A few years later, Sanford Levinson, a professor at that same school, published a law review article entitled "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" that started the ball rolling on reviving the Amendment, leading eventually to the Heller decision.) All the years that it was treated as a dead letter, enabled the 2nd Amendment to "fly beneath the radar." I have no doubt that if the Amendment had been as salient in the early 20th century, as it has been in the early 21st century, it would have been repealed in the wave of reform under the Progressive Movement (that also passed the income tax, women's suffrage, direct election of senators, etc.). The fact that no one was paying attention, saved it.
 
I agree 100%. The paradox, however, is that those with anger issues and poor self control are more likely to carry guns.
But asking the rest of us not to, because they "are more likely" is not doing anything beneficial except, maybe, making everyone else an easier victim.

How does that make sense?

Like removing your dog's teeth because other dogs in the neighborhood might bite people
 
Where did I say anything about "punishing the 99%"? What I'm suggesting is that we voluntarily reduce the amount of carrying, in hopes that this reduces the cultural climate of violence. This has nothing to do with more laws. Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive.


You go first.

Are you seriously holding law abiding gun owners responsible for criminal actions of others? How on earth is voluntarily surrendering a right going to strengthen it ? Asking someone who isn't going to commit a crime to disarm them-self to prevent a crime is , in fact "punishing the 99%" when they become a victim because you volunteered their rights away .
 
I bet a million people would agree that training and competent instruction should be at the top of the to do list for any new gun owner, but we have enough micromanagement and interference from the government, the last thing we need IMO.....

I realize we are in a new age with alot more people with alot more guns and accidents and bad calls are inevitable, but I see plenty of jackwagons on the roadways that had to take driver's Ed and got tested before getting licensed, doesn't stop them from being reckless a-holes on the road.

Irresponsible people and incompetence lead to unnecessary accidents, I don't think the OP's suggestion solves a tinkers damn......
 
If everybody exercised their freedom of speech to the limit, we would have a much more vulgar and unpleasant society.
That ship has sailed. Do you not get out much anymore? Not paying attention to pop culture? Not listening to what passes for "music" these days? Not watching network television or getting out to the movies? Not watching mainstream media "news?"
What I'm suggesting is that we voluntarily reduce the amount of carrying, in hopes that this reduces the cultural climate of violence. This has nothing to do with more laws.
So even someone hopelessly naive would probably not think that the only people eligible to legally carry a concealed handgun, who would voluntarily reduce their amount of carrying, would NOT be those inclined to escalate immediately into road rage incidents or loss of control of their temper over minor incidents or perceived slights. And these reasonable people, presumably possessed of a fair degree of self-awareness, would certainly not be doing so in the hope of reducing the cultural climate of violence.
Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive.
It's not naivete. But I'm not sure what it is.

Honestly, we know you're an intelligent, educated person, but you're certainly confounding the membership here.
 
Do those instructions tell you the conditions under which you are allowed to use deadly force in self-defense in your state? Or how the conditions differ for defense of others? Or under what conditions it is legal to use deadly force in defense of property? One of the presumptions of citizenship is that there is an expection that our citizens will exercise their rights responsibly. This would include the notion that citizens take seriously the right to bear arms in self-defense and defense of another, which implies that it is incumbent upon the citizen to exercise the right responsibly and understand the laws.

The rules of carrying a gun for defensive purposes are different in every state, and they go far beyond just knowing how not to accidentally shoot someone. Why would you possibly object to legal gun owners being given the knowledge that just might keep them out of prison for the rest of their lives?It's been stated before in this thread, but why should the Second Amendment be different than any other right enumerated in the Bill of Rights -- none of the other rights presume a government mandate to educate the citizen in how to exercise those rights.

The paradox, however, is that those with anger issues and poor self control are more likely to carry guns.
And it's almost comically tragic that those so inclined to indulge in road rage are more likely to drive the largest motor vehicles, usually big pickup trucks or SUVs. Should we be advocating for more government control over who drives what types of vehicles due to what we see on our public roadways?
 
Where did I say anything about "punishing the 99%"? What I'm suggesting is that we voluntarily reduce the amount of carrying, in hopes that this reduces the cultural climate of violence.

If the guns are concealed, how will anyone be aware of who is or isn't armed and how will that affect the cultural climate? Or are you suggesting that having a gun causes people to become violent? I would contend that most of those people who murder others over trivialities already have criminal records and therefore can't legally carry to begin with.

Also, the culture of violence has more to do with city and state governments failing to hold criminals (mostly those of leftist persuasion) accountable for their actions. How many politicians have we seen excusing or even condoning violence?

Well yes, I guess that's more or less what I'm saying. Just because we have rights doesn't mean we have to exercise them. Take freedom of speech, for example. If everybody exercised their freedom of speech to the limit, we would have a much more vulgar and unpleasant society.

I don't know where you've been the past few years, but it's hard to imagine a much more vulgar and unpleasant society. We didn't get here through too much free speech but exactly the opposite. Fringe radicals have been allowed to control the narratives and cowed the vast majority into keeping their mouths shut. Speaking up and pushing back doesn't mean you have to do it in an unhinged psychotic manner just as exercising your right to bear arms doesn't mean you have to go grocery shopping wearing full tactical gear and an AK on a single point sling just to get a reaction from the normal shoppers.
 
Not true, at least when I lived in Alaska. You could still opt for a carry license that did require training and had reciprocity with other states.
It’s true if you don’t opt for a permit in your state of residence.

That’s another reason why I’ll keep and renew my Florida license, I can lawfully carry in states that require a permit and recognize my Florida license.
 
What I'm suggesting is that we voluntarily reduce the amount of carrying, in hopes that this reduces the cultural climate of violence. Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive.

Law abiding people voluntarily disarm to reduce violence is a NY city type thinking, they try to keep people from legally carrying by making as many places as they can off limits to carry. Criminals ignore the law; so, criminals are armed and law abiding that left their guns at home are unarmed victims.

I agree 100%. The paradox, however, is that those with anger issues and poor self control are more likely to carry guns.

I've had concealed carry 30+ years, so has my wife. I like carrying; I'm a concealed carry enthusiast.
Your assertion that people with anger control issues are more likely to carry guns is illogical, incorrect.
Armed (gun, knife, or impact weapon) psychotic, irrational people with anger & impulse control issues are the type people I'm carrying to defend myself against.

I'm supposed to not go armed to reduce the cultural climate of violence? That is absurd.
Good people that are unarmed are victims to criminals every day (watch the news) I'm going to do my best not to be one of them.

Lets take a couple of recent examples that made national news:
Church shooting. One of the congregation members stopped a shooter. He saved people by being armed.
Mall shooting. Armed person stopped active shooter, saved lives.

I'm wasting my time trying to make rational points with someone thinking irrationally.
 
Criminals do it.
Why is it bad when someone who can pass a background check does it?

All that constitutional carry does is right a wrong. Gun permits, carry permits only existed to keep poors, brown, yellow and red skinned people from carrying a gun and making it a crime if they do.
 
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Lol. “Cultural climate of violence” is 85% due to very lax inner city enforcement of laws and punishment of criminals. And if you want to look deeper, it’s the culture of dependence many of these people (and their families, cousins, etc.) have on a certain political machine, which encourages them to feel sorry for themselves and demand handouts (and judicial exemption) rather than doing something about their sorry economic plight. When you have a job that earns enough to pay the bills and buy a house and car worth mentioning, you become a productive member of society. You don’t have time to shoot someone over a drug deal because you’re working and mowing your lawn in the evening. Also the drug deal, with its risk of prison, is no longer something you wish to engage in, because you have something to lose.

The other 15% is due to Hollywood, which seems to have an obsession with glamorizing violence and guns in every other movie, along with showing us all excellent examples of poor gun handling, poor decision making, poor problem solving skills, poor family life and social interaction, etc. (Seriously, I think if we want to talk about banning a whole industry for the sake of the children, instead of the gunmakers it should be the movie and TV industry.)

Whether I choose to put an LCP in my pocket when I walk out my front door this morning, has zero to do with gun violence, real or perceived. Nobody knows I’ve got it except me, and in 10+ years of ownership I’ve never had to draw it once (but there have been a couple of close calls where I was mighty happy I had it) and who knows whether today I may need it?

I think education is great and I’d submit that there could even be some kind of a govt. subsidy to encourage responsible gun ownership. “Take the free, 3 hour course on gun safety and carry laws which is put on at such and such building every Wednesday and Saturday, and save 25% on your purchase of a personal protection handgun or home defense long gun.” They could issue the attendees a coupon that the LGS could redeem for reimbursement. This would be a responsible and worthwhile use of tax dollars that might have a real impact.
 
And it's almost comically tragic that those so inclined to indulge in road rage are more likely to drive the largest motor vehicles, usually big pickup trucks or SUVs. Should we be advocating for more government control over who drives what types of vehicles due to what we see on our public roadways?
I don’t know why you quoted me here. At no point did I ever advocate for more government control. All I’m advocating for is to make access to information easier.

I swear, I think some of you are looking for a conflict where none exists just so you can have a straw man.
 
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I was always told and taught this was the land of the free, and the home of the brave, but I haven't seen much of that for a good while now.
The illusion continues and just keeps getting worse. ;)

That's because you missed the small print:

The land of the free*
*Some exclusions based upon income, race, religion, geography, and family history apply. May cause nausea, headaches, and painful swelling. If these conditions last for over four hours, see a physician or a psychologist. Freedom is known to cause cancer in California.
 
I'm talking about northern Virginia, which is the suburbs of D.C. You go 20 miles outside the Beltway, and the climate changes completely.
You think criminals are going to do what's good for society?
That's absolutely adorable.
Since the context seems to be Washington DC I saw a report that says a typical murder suspect there has had 11 prior arrests.
And another study from Chicago from about 2010 say the typical suspect of a shooting has 12 prior arrests.
How exactly is disarming the law abiding going to reduce violence again?
Violent crime doesn't happen because law abiding people carry guns, it happens because the criminal justice system is clearly ineffective.
 
If the guns are concealed, how will anyone be aware of who is or isn't armed and how will that affect the cultural climate? Or are you suggesting that having a gun causes people to become violent? I would contend that most of those people who murder others over trivialities already have criminal records and therefore can't legally carry to begin with.
I keep seeing stories like the one about the retiree in Florida, who killed his neighbor, and his neighbor's wife, over a dispute about leaving the door of the apartment laundry room propped open. This tragedy, which destroyed four lives (the victims', the perpetrator's, and the perpetrator's wife's) wouldn't have happened if the shooter hadn't been carrying. He wasn't a bad man; he just got carried away in an emotional moment. He was sorry the instant after it happened. Why, again, was he carrying?
 
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