Constitutionality of federal law enforcement?

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natedog

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Are Federal law enforcement agencies like the FBI, DEA, Marshals, etc. unconstitutional? I hear this thrown around some, and have never heard a reason why, except for 10th Amendment issues. (Playing devil's advocate here...) How could a felon that crosses state lines be pursued without Federal agencies? Or, what about enforcement of federal law?

-Nate
 
Let's see, the first three fed LE agencies were started by the guys who wrote the Constitution: US Marshals Service, Postal Inspectors (originally Postal Surveyors), and ICE (originally Customs). The statutes creating the USMS and Customs were passed soon after the Constitution was ratified. Postal Surveyors, who eventually became the Postal Inspectors, were created when we were still colonies of Great Britain, and continued on as we got our independence.

I think that if there were a Constitutional problem with federal law enforcement, the founding fathers who wrote the Constitution, and were well represented throughout the federal government at the time, might have raised an objection to those agencies coming into existence. Not to mention George Washington himself used the federal troops to enforce federal law during the "Whiskey Rebellion."

From a practical standpoint, it would be ridiculous to give Congress the power to create federal law, without giving the federal government a mechanism to enforce those laws.

EDIT TO ADD:

I went and looked up some of the details. The very first Congress of our Republic created fed LE with the Judiciary Act( 1789), which gave us the US Marshals, and the Tariff Act (1789) which gave us US Customs. The Judiciary Act was was Senate Bill Number One of the first Congress. So the very first law passed by Congress created a federal law enforcement agency. Every fed LE agency since has been created in exactly the same way, Congress created those agencies with statutory authority to enforce various portions of the US Code.

To anyone who understands the Constitution, and knows history, there is no question as to whether federal law enforcement agencies are allowed by the Constitution.
 
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So the very first law passed by Congress created a federal law enforcement agency. Every fed LE agency since has been created in exactly the same way, Congress created those agencies with statutory authority to enforce various portions of the US Code.

That's not how I understand it.

Congress has the power to regulate commerce among the states, with foreign nations, and with Indian tribes. They're going to need regulators to regulate, so they created the US Customs Service.

There are also a few federal crimes outlined in the Constitution, though Federalist #17 says that they were never to have a general police power. But, to enforce laws against those crimes, they'll need cops, so they created the US Marshalls.

But later on, they wanted to regulate guns and drugs. Lacking the authority to regulate guns and drugs, they passed "taxes" which were really drug and gun regulations (NFA, Harrison Act, Marihuana Tax Act). They didn't create a US Firearms Enforcement Service or a US Drug Enforcement Agency, since they lacked the power to create those things. They instead created Bureaus within the Treasury Department.

But those "Treasury Bureaus" were really new law enforcement agencies, enforcing a new regulatory power, not a new tax.

Of course, later on the Constitution grew, and things like drug prohibition and gun prohibition became Constitutional under the commerce clause, and now we find ourselve in a situation in which the Supreme Court is deciding whether a homegrown cannabis plant for personal consumption, or a homegrown machine gun for personal consumption, are any of the federal government's business at all.
 
publius has it right. The Constitution only grants the national gov't police powers over property it owns/controls, and concerning certain of its powers (such as the power to regulate foreign commerce). There is no general police power, which was reserved for the states as part of the scheme of federalization. In order to get around this prohibition (remember, if the Constitution doesn't grant something to the national gov't, the national gov't does not have that authority), Congress latched on to the interstate commerce clause and justified its actions as being regulatory in nature.
 
Constitutionality of Federal Law enforcement

Just to add something to this discussion, Why do we need so many different Federal law Enforcement agencies? I mean we have FBI, USMS, Secret Service, TSA, DEA, Border Patrol, Customs. IRS Agents, BATFE. Such a plethora is mind boggling to say the least. :eek: :eek:
 
What are their original charters? FBI investigates federal crimes? USMS tracks down fugitives? Seems to me like those could be merged into one federal crime law-enforcement agency.

Secret Service seems constitutional to me as long as they stick to currency crimes and protecting government officials. They might have a few other legitimate responsibliities that I'm forgetting at the moment.

The DEA and BATFE are unconstitutional. Regulating drugs requires an amendment, and it was already tried with the most-used drug on the planet, with horrible results. Regulating firearms in any way requires revoking the 2nd amendment, which would be cause for rebellion because the Constitution was only passed on the assurance that a bill of rights would be forthcoming, and granting the federal government power to regulate guns, because it ain't nowhere in the existing constitution.

TSA doesn't seem constitutional. The federal government has no power to regulate interstate transportation, much less intrastate transportation. Regulating interstate commerce does not mean regulating anything involving two or more states. People are not supposed to have to show papers to travel between states, but the TSA pretty much requires it now.

FEMA as an aid organization is fine; I think it's a legitimate exercise of the general welfare power. FEMA as coordinating agency under martial law is not legitimate and not constitutional, if the allegations of the tin-foil-hat crowd are to be believed.

Border Patrol and Customs are legitimate as long as they don't get involved in Drug issues or "money laundering." Customs checks shipments and legitimate border-crossers, border patrol prevents illegal border-crossing.

IRS may or may not be constitutional depending on how the 16th amendment and the Tax code are interpreted, and whether the 16th amendment was properly ratified.
 
Just to add something to this discussion, Why do we need so many different Federal law Enforcement agencies?
We have 72 federal agencies that are authorized to carry firearms to some degree. :uhoh:

71 of those agencies are authorized to carry on airplanes.
 
FEMA as an aid organization is fine; I think it's a legitimate exercise of the general welfare power.
Check out what a couple of the Founders had to say about the welfare clause:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20031001.shtml

James Madison is the Constitution's acknowledged "father," and here's what he had to say: "With respect to the two words ‘general welfare', I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

Thomas Jefferson echoed similar sentiments, "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."
 
Welll...aren't all Federal Law Enforcement agencies under the executive branch of governemnt...and it is the job of the executive to enforce all laws. In a way, federal agents of law enforcement are jsut an extension of our president.

I know it is a very middle school way of looking at the situation...but it is true that the job of the executive is to enforce federal laws...
 
Just because the Congress passed a law and the President is charged with enforcing it does not mean that Congress actually had the authority under the Constitution to pass the law in the first place.
 
*Sigh* Where to begin? :banghead:

That's not how I understand it.
[SARCASM]I’m shocked you don’t understand it.[/SARCASM]
Congress has the power to regulate commerce among the states, with foreign nations, and with Indian tribes.
You might want to read Article I of the US Constitution, because they have a little more power than that.
They're going to need regulators to regulate, so they created the US Customs Service.
Actually Customs did NOT come into existence to regulate commerce between the states or with Indian tribes. Rather Customs came about to collect and enforce tariffs on imported goods. For more info on the history of US Customs, now ICE, see this link: http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/about/history/history.xml

There are also a few federal crimes outlined in the Constitution, . . .
Well there doesn’t need to be crimes defined in the Constitution because Article I gives Congress the power to pass laws. Common sense people, the Legislature (aka Congress) exists to legislate.
. . . though Federalist #17 says that they were never to have a general police power.
Whoopee! Here’s some shocking news, the Federalist Papers, and the Anti-Federalist Papers were just part of the debate over the Constitution, they are NOT part of the Constitution. Only what was properly ratified as part of the Constitution, or added through amendment is the Constitution. The Federalist papers help to understand what SOME of the framers thought, but they are not the Constitution itself.
But, to enforce laws against those crimes, they'll need cops, so they created the US Marshalls.
Well as noted earlier the US Marshals Service (one L people please, they’re cops not a department store), were not created through the Constitution, they were created through legislative action. The USMS, just like every other fed LE agency to follow was created by Congress, and given specific statutory authority to enforce federal laws. As you yourself admit they needed people to enforce federal law, so they created federal law enforcment. Just because the USMS was the first, doesn't mean they were only ones the Constitution allowed. As pointed out earlier the Constitution did not create the USMS.
But later on, they wanted to regulate guns and drugs. Lacking the authority to regulate guns and drugs, they passed "taxes" which were really drug and gun regulations (NFA, Harrison Act, Marihuana Tax Act). They didn't create a US Firearms Enforcement Service or a US Drug Enforcement Agency, since they lacked the power to create those things. They instead created Bureaus within the Treasury Department.

But those "Treasury Bureaus" were really new law enforcement agencies, enforcing a new regulatory power, not a new tax. .
Thanks for skipping over all the other federal crimes, and making this discussion just about guns and drugs. :rolleyes: Here’s a clue, it doesn’t matter what department in the government gets the statutory authority from Congress to enforce the law, if Congress passes the law under Article I, it’s signed into law under Article II, and the withstands scrutiny of the courts under Article III, then whom Congress assigns to enforce that law is irrelevant.

Also, breaking a tax law is still breaking a law, so let's not pretend creating LE agencies under the Treasury Department was part of some sneaky plot. :rolleyes: Regardless, no matter what department they are organized under Congress gave specific agencies, statutory authority to enforce the law.
Of course, later on the Constitution grew, and things like drug prohibition and gun prohibition became Constitutional under the commerce clause, and now we find ourselve in a situation in which the Supreme Court is deciding whether a homegrown cannabis plant for personal consumption, or a homegrown machine gun for personal consumption, are any of the federal government's business at all.
No the Constitution didn’t “grow,†Congress passed laws, under their authority from Article I of the COUS, and sometimes the Courts have said they exceeded their authority and declared the laws un-Constitutional, and other times the Courts said they were within their authority.

We can debate all day long whether certain laws are or are not Constitutional, (all though Article III really gives that power to the Court, and Article V gives us the power to change that) however there is NOTHING in the Constitution, which prohibits the federal government from enforcing the laws it passes. If Congress passes the law, and it withstands review by the courts, then the federal government is able to enforce it. If you want to change that, I again refer you to Article V of the Constitution.
 
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Just to add something to this discussion, Why do we need so many different Federal law Enforcement agencies? I mean we have FBI, USMS, Secret Service, TSA, DEA, Border Patrol, Customs. IRS Agents, BATFE. Such a plethora is mind boggling to say the least.
Well I already explained this on another thread, when someone was asking why the Postal Inspectors, IRS-CI, USDA-OIG, etc, are fed LE agencies:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1554837&highlight=statutory+authority#post1554837

I'm for many of the agencies carrying, but I also don't think that every agency (like IRS, USDA, or FDA) needs armed agents. They need to involve local & state LEO's--it's their jurisdiction.
Please explain to me how someone violating a FEDERAL tax law is the jurisdiction of a state or local agency? Hint - it's not, it's under the jurisdiction of the IRS-CI, a federal law enforcement agency with statutory authority from Congress to investigate crimes involving violation of FEDERAL tax laws. While you're at it, could you explain to me how someone using food stamps (a FEDERALLY funded program) in the drug trade, is under the jurisdiction of a state or local agency? Hint - it's not, because it is criminal activity affecting a USDA program Congress gave USDA-OIG specific statutory authority to investigate those crimes, and a broad range of other crimes affecting FEDERAL programs administered by the USDA.

I could go on to explain why FDA-OCI, FDA-OIG, USCP, SSA-OIG, USPP, HUD-OIG, RRB-OIG, CBP, EPA-CID, EPA-OIG, US Mint, NRC-OIG, DOL-OIG, DOT-OIG, TIGTA, USFWS, DOE-OIG, Postal-OIG, USPIS, and about 4 dozen other agencies of the federal government have their own law enforcement personnel. Every explanation will contain comments about federal laws and specific statutory authority from Congress.

Now before people start crying "let the FBI do it all." Congress wants those duties spread out the way they are. It gives Congress more control over what enforcement activities get priority. Regardless, even if there was one "super agency" that did it all, you would still have the same number of people enforcing the same laws. However, the tinhatters heads would start exploding from extreme hypertension caused by one agency having all that LE jurisdiction.

One more time, FEDERAL law = federal jurisdiction, STATE law = state jurisdiction. I am surprised people here who claim to love the Constitution, are not familiar with this concept of separate sovereigns.
 
publius has it right. The Constitution only grants the national gov't police powers over property it owns/controls, and concerning certain of its powers (such as the power to regulate foreign commerce). There is no general police power, which was reserved for the states as part of the scheme of federalization. In order to get around this prohibition (remember, if the Constitution doesn't grant something to the national gov't, the national gov't does not have that authority), Congress latched on to the interstate commerce clause and justified its actions as being regulatory in nature.
Please feel free to quote the sections of the Constitution, which prohibit the federal government from enforcing federal law. Please don't come back with quotes from the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist Papers, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, the Magna Carta, King James version of the bible, or the Balitmore Catechism, but rather the specific quotes from the Constitution of the United States, which prohibit the federal government from enforcing federal law.
 
[SARCASM]I’m shocked you don’t understand it.[/SARCASM]

Hey, great opener! Really reflects well on us! I thank you, and I'm sure Oleg thanks you!

Actually Customs did NOT come into existence to regulate commerce between the states or with Indian tribes. Rather Customs came about to collect and enforce tariffs on imported goods.

In other words, pursuant to a known and intended federal power, laying tariffs, and regulating commerce with foreign nations.

Well there doesn’t need to be crimes defined in the Constitution because Article I gives Congress the power to pass laws.

It does not give them the power to pass just any law they wish. In order for them to pass laws, they need to have authority in the area in which they are legislating.

The Federalist papers help to understand what SOME of the framers thought, but they are not the Constitution itself.

The Constitution does not include explanations regarding the intent of the power to tax, or of the commerce clause, so I figured the documents which do spell out that intent might be relevant to a discussion of intent.

Well as noted earlier the US Marshals Service (one L people please, they’re cops not a department store), were not created through the Constitution, they were created through legislative action.

And the authority for that legislative action can easily be found in Article 1, Section 8. A reading of the Federalist papers will show that the power to enforce the powers found therein was fully intended.

Thanks for skipping over all the other federal crimes, and making this discussion just about guns and drugs.

Just trying to keep it topical and use examples at the same time. This is a firearms forum, so I brought up gun laws. Right now, as they have been for almost 100 years, gun laws are tied to drug laws by their Constitutional roots.

Here’s a clue, it doesn’t matter what department in the government gets the statutory authority from Congress to enforce the law
No, but it does matter whether or not Congress had the statutory authority in the first place.

Also, breaking a tax law is still breaking a law, so let's not pretend creating LE agencies under the Treasury Department was part of some sneaky plot.

I didn't mean to imply that they were sneaky about it, they were actually rather brazen. I'm just saying it was an end-run around the limits of Congress' Constitutional authority when they passed "taxes" in order to acquire regulatory authority over guns and drugs. The Constitution does not itself say whether or not the power to tax was intended to include the power to regulate firearms or cannabis growing. To determine that, I go and look at things like the Federalist Papers. I guess if you ONLY look at the Constitution, and refuse to consider any other sources, it kinda looks like the Congress has the power to lay any tax, for any purpose, but I don't believe that was the intent.

No the Constitution didn’t “grow,†Congress passed laws, under their authority from Article I of the COUS, and sometimes the Courts have said they exceeded their authority and declared the laws un-Constitutional, and other times the Courts said they were within their authority.

We can debate all day long whether certain laws are or are not Constitutional...

OK, why don't we? Do you think that Congress was within their proper authority when they passed the NFA "tax" in order to acquire the power to regulate guns? Because I see the power to tax in Article 1, Section 8, but I don't believe that was a "necessary or proper" use of that power. I know the Courts have said otherwise, but there is such a thing as a dissent when a Court opinion comes out, and I'm dissenting. How about you?
 
Please feel free to quote the sections of the Constitution, which prohibit the federal government from enforcing federal law.

Article 1 Section 8 concludes:

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers...

Is a homegrown cannabis plant for personal consumption, or a homegrown machine gun for personal consumption, the subject of Congress' powers under the commerce clause? Or would that be an unnecessary and improper usurpation of powers beyond those "foregoing powers?"

It's not an idle question, those are two Supreme Court cases under consideration right now. (Edited to provide helpful links on those. :))
 
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I'm wondering if any ATF supporters want to field this one:

Do you think that Congress was within their proper authority when they passed the NFA "tax" in order to acquire the power to regulate guns?

Because if you do believe that when the framers gave Congress the power to tax, they intended for that power to be used to regulate firearms, I can see how you could believe that they were within their authority to create a Treasury bureau in charge of enforcing those regulations. Obviously, they have the power to enforce any law they have the power to pass.

But if that is not a "necessary and proper" use of the power to tax, then how can an agency created to enforce an unconstitutional tax be constitutional?
 
Originally posted by publius:
Obviously, they have the power to enforce any law they have the power to pass.
Well thanks for agreeing with me.
Originally posted by DMF:
We can debate all day long whether certain laws are or are not Constitutional, (all though Article III really gives that power to the Court, and Article V gives us the power to change that) however there is NOTHING in the Constitution, which prohibits the federal government from enforcing the laws it passes. If Congress passes the law, and it withstands review by the courts, then the federal government is able to enforce it. If you want to change that, I again refer you to Article V of the Constitution.
 
Hi DMF,

I'm still left wondering what you think about this:

Do you think that Congress was within their proper authority when they passed the NFA "tax" in order to acquire the power to regulate guns?

I'm not asking for the current state of the law, or the facts about what the courts have found. I'm asking for your opinion on that question.
 
publius, because I support the whole Constitution, rather than just cherry pick what is convenient, my answer has always been the same. If a law has been passed according to Article I, signed into law under Article II, and withstood review by the courts under Article III, then it is Constitutional, whether I like it or not.

See my signature line if you are confused. Gen. Goldwater and I suffer the same affliction.
 
OK, I understand.

So, do you like it, or not? Because I don't.


Call me ignorant or hindered by dogma, but I think that if you walked into the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia and said, "Hey guys, I just wanted to stop in and verify that when you gave Congress the power to tax, you meant to include the power to regulate firearms, and when you gave Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, you meant to include authority over intrastate, non-commercial growing of cannabis?" that they would probably tell you they meant nothing of the kind.

Do you think I'm right or wrong about that?
 
DMF, let me see if I've got this straight...

If Congress passes, the President signs, and the courts refuse to review or review and find a piece of legislation constitutional, that legislation is constitutional?

If Congress passes, the President signs, and the courts review and find a piece of legislation unconstitutional, that legislation is unconstitutional?


The Founders were clear that they believed any government, even their newly formed government, could run off its tracks and become tyrannical even while following proper procedures. You effectively ignore this concern.

To consider all legislation constitutional if it's passed and found constitutional by the Courts is to say that the Constitution only places procedural limitations on the government. What gives you the right to decide that the Constitution's procedural limitations must be followed, but not the substantive limitations (limitations on power to those abilities specifically granted)?

You would have no problem with reinstitution of slavery as long as the three branches were complicit? What about legislation reinstituting the prohibition without repassage of the 18th amendment? If Congress were to vote itself a retroactive pay raise and the Courts did nothing, would that be constitutional? How flagrantly does the text of the Constitution have to be violated before you stand up and reject what's going on as unconstitutional regardless of what the Courts say? Or would you wait until the Guardians are going house to house arresting people who post to THR? At that point, would you turn yourself in, or would you go into hiding while writing in to your newly-government-controlled local newspaper, explaining anonymously to others the error of your ways and encouraging them to obey the new government?
 
I guess that if everyone in power says that the Emporer's new clothes are just plain gorgeous, then they're just plain gorgeous, and that's the end of the discussion.
 
Please feel free to quote the sections of the Constitution, which prohibit the federal government from enforcing federal law.

Why don't you quote the portion granting the national gov't general police powers? Try looking in Article I, Section 8 and see if you find such a power.

Since you won't, why don't you try to extrapolate how the power "[T]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" became authority to interfere and control nearly every aspect of the lives of citizens, even when those aspects have wholly intrastate effects. It'll be hard to do, because the weight of jurisprudence (including Supreme Court cases) was against such an interpretation until FDR threatened the Supremes, and they rolled over and voted his way to preserve their own power.
 
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