Contemplating 1911 Build

[ugaarguy]

As many of you know I recently purchased a Sringfiel GI 1911, and I have recently discovered how easy it is to strip this pistol down to the bare frame; save grip screw bushings, plunder tubes, and ejector. This spring I'll be getting out of the Air Force, leaving Idaho, and returning to The Empire State of The South, the hot & humid state of Georgia as it's otherwise known. I'm sure the parkerized finish on the SA will hold up to heat & humidity induced sweat, but I also think a stainless 1911 with commander length top end would be a dandy carry piece. I've started researching building, or, more accurately, assembling one. It would be a fun project and very cool to know that I was the final assembler on my 1911 and picked all the parts myself. For the build I'm looking at an Essex enhanced SS frame & slide, New US made bbl from Sarco, and almost all stainless parts, right down to the pins, from Wilson and McCormick. The build will cost at least $600 in parts, but everything will be high grade and almost all of it stainless. On the other hand I could go with a Armscor parked or blued frame & slide with mostly blued steel parts and duracoat the pistol; guesstimated savings of at least $150. On parts like springs & pins are the Wilson parts with the higher prices? What do you guys think?

 

[pete f]

Essex has prettygood parts, as does caspian, Most of the big time builders seem to go with caspian.


Here is the big thing about building a 1911. GET the KUHNHAUSEN books. Its gonna cost you 40 bucks for the books, but it will save you double or triple that in not making a stupid mistake.


Then once you read what to do and what not to do, putting one together that goes bang all the time is fairly easy, IF YOU READ THE BOOK. You will develop a confidence about your pistol and you will have a lot of fun doing it.

 

[Old Fuff]

It is indeed easy to detail strip and reassemble a 1911 platform pistol. However there is a big difference between doing that to a previously built gun where suposedly those parts that needed to be fitted and adjusted were, (sometimes questionable these days) and building a gun out of raw parts.

The Essex frame and slide you propose to use have a reputation for sometimes being mis-dimensioned, which can make building a nightmare. We currently have (or had) a thread running where a person tried too do what you plan, and has discovered the the grip safety won't work, and maybe the disconector won't either. Also if you match a Government Model frame to a shortened G.M. slide you'll end up with a shortened recoil spring tunnel among other things - and a Commander slide on a G.M. frame won't work either.

Gun building isn't like putting a puzzle together. You would be far wiser to take your money and buy a complete stainless steel/commander size pistol from Springfield Armory or some other manufacturer. By the time you get your homebuilt really assembled and working reliably you will probably have exceeded the cost of a factory made gun.

 

[JoeHatley]

Its a fun project, but be aware, you will NOT save any money. You will learn lots and have the pride of doing it yourself.

Here's my "Frankenpistol" made up of an Essex frame, Colt slide/barrel, Briley spherical bushing, AlumaGrips, and everything else is Wilson Combat. All parts, other than the Colt stuff was purchased retail.



A good shop manual like the ones at www.gunbooks.com will help, and you may as well get comfortable with the www.brownells.com site.

I'm glad I did it, but would not do it again. For what I ended up with in this gun, I could have bought 2 new entry level Kimbers at the time (1992-ish).

Good Luck...

Joe

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt.

You cannot build an M1911 cheaper than you can buy one -- you'll need special tools (for example, staking tools for the plunger tube and front sight), and the cost will dramatically affect the whole project.

If you want to do it for the education, well and good. But don't expect to produce a quality M1911 on the cheap.

 

[KC&97TA]

... It would be a fun project and very cool to know that I was the final assembler on my 1911 and picked all the parts myself...

As long as you know this; find a gunsmith, take your time, go with quality parts. The cost of your build in the long run is going to come close or over what a custom would cost.

 

[ugaarguy]

A little more info.

First I know I won't save any money, that became obvious at the cost of parts. Second I was looking at the Essex Frames because they already have plunger tube & ejector in place, you can get them with grip screw bushings already in place on request, and the enhanced version has the finger cut under the trigger guard for higher grip, and is radiused .250" for extended grip safeties. Third the Essex enhanced slides come pre dovetailed for novak or bomar sights, your choice, ready to have a smith put the sights in for you. Both frames and slides are available standard or commander length. Fourth, I know that I will have to file, grind, and sand some parts to get a good fit - this is where stainless has its appeal, after everything fits I can brush it or polish it myself rather than having to get parts blued or re blued. Finally no, I wouldn't dare try this without proper shop manuals.

Old Fuff, thanks for the heads up on Essex tolerances, or lack thereof. Do you know if their enhanced parts are any better? I'll look into Caspian parts as well. I'll also call Brownells since they give military the same pricing as smiths and dealers - that could lower parts cost a bit.

Thanks to all for you feedback thus far - 1911s may be more addictive than S&W revolvers :banghead:

 

[Old Fuff]

Call Dave Bennetts at Brownells. He's more up to date on Essex and other frames and slides then I am. Given their reputation I've avoided them.

Caspian is expensive, but unquestionably high quality. You can also get the modification you mentioned on Caspian Frames and Slides as on Essex. My most recent information on Essex implied that they were better, but still a mixed bag - some good and others not so good. Ya' pay your money and take your chances...

There is a lot more to it then "I know that I will have to file, grind, and sand some parts to get a good fit." When final assembly is done it takes knowledge and experience - some of which won't be found by reading a book or watching a video. Consider what might happen if you walked into... say Colt's... and said, "Hi guys, I've never done it before but I'm here to start assembling pistols..." You would quickly find out that the door swings two ways. Those who assemble guns for the manufacturers go through extensive training and oversight (or at least they should – sometimes I wonder) before they can start doing it on their own.

Many years ago we had a different situation then today. Brand new USGI slides sold for $17.00, barrels for $15.00 and sometimes less. The rest of the parts (less the frame) were similarly priced. So, if you could find a frame, building a gun using top-quality government parts was economically viable. Today equal-quality parts cost big bucks, and you’d better expect that some of them will be ruined as you follow the learning curve.

 

[farscott]

While you are checking out the Caspian frames, I would look at the Caspian frames with the integral plunger tube. This is a real advance as there is no concern about the plunger tube coming loose from the frame due to a poor staking operation. It also saves the kitchen gunsmith the cost of the staking tool.

 

[ugaarguy]

Fuff, didn't mean to over simplify the fitting process, was simply trying to elaborate that I understand I'd be foolish to believe anything wil just "drop in." I'm also not so sure that parts are that much more expensive when you factor in infaltion, for example, look at the price of gasoline or a coke now compared to what they were when slides & bbls were about $15. Thanks for the contact info at Brownells too, I'll call them and ask about which way to go on frames & slides. If I ruin a few small parts and have to spend more to get the Caspian parts I'm ok with that - I'll pay for quality. I have the money to do it, I'd like to learn, and I know I'll have frustrations along the way. But I'm also confident I can do it, and nothing will replace the pride of ownership of doing it myself.

 

[keitharsis]

JMB originally designed the 1911's parts to be interchangable per the US Army correct?



I've often wondered myself about building my own 1911. I have also wondered how much "fitting" is really needed that I couldn't do myself with some sandpaper and/or file, or if I had to, have that/those particular small number of part(s) fitted by a smith.


I kind of tested this theory with my Colt Gov. and Colt Commander. I had them both completely broken down and proceeded to swap parts from one to another. Minus slide/barrel, it worked and even passed a rough safety test....
Now I didn't leave them that way but I see no reason why they wouldn't have worked once I put the slide/barrel back on.

 

[Old Fuff]

I didn't leave them that way but I see no reason why they wouldn't have worked once I put the slide/barrel back on.

Worked possibly - but not necessarily reliably over time. If you matched the parts (moving everything from one pistol to the other except the slide and barrel) your chances would be better because they were fitted to each other in the first place. I also suspect that you didn't exchange extractors, and that could have made a difference.

If you had disassembled one or both pistols, and replaced ALL of the internals with raw, previously unfitted parts the story might be different.

Browning designed the pistol so that as much as was possible parts could be interchanged, although the concept wasn't perfect. For a long time, slides were numbered to frames. In World War Two additional changes were made to insure parts made by one contractor would work in guns made by another.

In 1911 no one ever though that in the early 21st century it would be thought that parts could be bought from different makers - each doing their own thing, and none working to a common set of blueprints - and then be assembled without fitting into a finished pistol that would work and be reliable.

 

[XavierBreath]

I have handbuilt vintage race cars and fabricated parts from scratch for jet aircraft. As much as I like the 1911 though, I see no reason to build a pistol from the ground up. What you would learn, you can learn through studying the Kuhnhausen manuals and detail stripping a pistol. For the price of a good frame, slide and barrel, you can buy a stainless Springfield GI45. Buying any less than the best frame slide and barrel negates the entire project.

If you build your own pistol, yes, you get pride in your accomplishment. You also end up with a pistol that might bring $500 if you can find a willing buyer. I admire your spunk, but that is the economic reality. There was a time that I considered building my own from the ground up. Then I did a realistic price analysis, and took a look at the Essex framed pistols gathering dust at gunshows. I decided to buy a Colt instead.

Just my two cents.
If you decide to build one anyway, take pictures and post them so we can watch! The last good build published on a forum was Short's pistol on TFL.

 

[ugaarguy]

Old Fuff

Old Fuff, I just wanted take minute to say thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. I think I learn something from every one of your posts and want you to know that I and others here appreciate you educating us young bucks.

 

[ugaarguy]

Maybe a Semi-Build

Ok experts, how would you guys rate Springfield's Stainless Frames and slides when compared to Caspian? Since the Essex apparently isn't that good, and I want quality. I'm weighing that a Caspian stainless frame and slide will run just over $400, while I can get a complete SA GI Stainless for $452, both before shipping and dealer fee of course. Would I be better off using the SA as base for the build?

 

[XavierBreath]

Ok experts, how would you guys rate Springfield's Stainless Frames and slides when compared to Caspian?

Capsian is the choice of premier gunsmiths across the country when building a pistol from the ground up. Capsian frames are cast.

Springfield GI45s are also used by premier gunsmiths across the country as a basic pistol to build up. Springfield frames are forged.

Springfield gets my nod.

Unfortunately, if you go with the Springer, you will not get to enjoy the pleasures of mating slide to frame.

Be mindful that the Springfield slide will need dovetails cut for sights, and the ejection port will need lowering and flaring if you desire that. That is added cost that the Capsian slide would not need.

You can offset the cost of replacement parts by selling the leftover Springfield parts on ebay.

Caveat: I ain't no expert!

 

[ugaarguy]

Argh, I want a commander size pistol, but the SA GI in stainless is only available as a full size :banghead: . I also would prefer forged over cast. So I'm down to the $420 SA GI Champion that's parked. So maybe I'll go that route and strip the frame & slide and refinish them. I may be giving you guys a report on Duracoat by the end of this. For the money I think the forged Springer is the better buy. I was reading the link to shorts build about the difficulties of mating hammers & sears and how they recommend using a pre-mated set. So, a McCormick trigger, hammer, sear, and sear spring set is looking like a very good idea for puuting in a nicer trigger and commander style hammer. This is getting interesting.

 

[Old Fuff]

If, or when you call Dave Bennetts at Brownells ask him about finishes, including electroless nickel. Looks like stainless, and prevents corrosion about the same. Just don't apply the finish until all the mechanical work is done.

They have a lot of expertise in all fields of gunsmithing at Brownells. They don't post on the Internet, but the smarts are there.

One other thing, by now Bill Ruger should have proved that a top-quality investment casting is eual to an average forging. As a practical matter, there isn't any meaningful difference if the quality is there. A poor casting and badly machined forging are both junk.

 

[ugaarguy]

Fuff, what would we do without you I take it from your post that Brownells has an electroless nickel finish or finishing kit that's reasonably easy to do on your own. I'm not dead set on stainless, I was thinking that it would just beat sweat better than parkerizing. I know there are other finishes that also hold up well that usually have a teflon or other plastic... err.. I mean, polymer base that aids their durability. So what do you guys think of some of the other finishes out there?

 

[Powderman]

So far, I have built 3 1911's from the ground up, and worked on quite a few others. Here is what I have learned so far:

1. Get reference material.

To put it simply, you cannot have too much reference material, especially the Kuhnhausen books. They are worth their weight in gold. Read them, study them, absorb them--BEFORE you touch that frame, slide, or assorted parts.

2. Select quality parts for your build.

As John Ruskin said (kind of paraphrased here), you can either buy cheap many times, or quality once. If you buy quality the first time, you will save money over the times you have to re-buy the cheap parts.

Springfield Armory has good quality parts. So do the other makers. But, for overall good quality, I would drop the paper on Caspian machined parts for the frame and slide.

For the barrel, I would highly recommend (for a minimum of work) a good Storm Lake barrel. They have an excellent reputation, and are almost drop in. If you buy another quality barrel, you might also have to invest in reamers to cut the chamber to final dimensions.

For springs, there is only one choice in my book--Wolff. Get these and enjoy!

IMHO, you are right on the money with choosing a dovetail front sight.

3. Ask questions.

LOTS of questions. There are some premier pistolsmiths on this and other boards, and they will all be able to help you along. Many of us have also smithed our own guns, and we are willing to help.

4. The most important part, by far-----

PATIENCE!!!!! It is FAR too easy to get impatient, start hogging out metal and find yourself in a jam. (Please don't ask me how I know... )

Take your time. Measure two or three times carefully before you cut or remove ANY metal. Check your dimensions frequently as you go along.

When you get close to your dimensions, transition to a stone for final removal.

5. Get quality tools!

Brownell's has all the tools you will ever want...or need...or have to have to build your pistol. Here are some of the tools I have used (most from Brownell's) that will make life a LOT easier. Included are reference materials.

BOOKS:

The Shop Manuals from Kuhnhausen
Amateur Gun Crafting, Griffin Howe
The Book of the .45, Bill Wilson
NRA Parts Diagrams
Pistolsmithing, George Nonte

MEASURING TOOLS:

Machinist's scale
Dial caliper

METAL REMOVAL

8 and 12 inch mill file
12 file set, small Swiss pattern files
6 file set, Swiss pattern files
File card

STONES

FF46 India stone
Ceramic stone set
Hard Arkansas stone

(NOTE: all stones are 1/2 x 1/2 x 6)

EXPENDABLE SUPPLIES:

Lubrication oil, clear
Honing oil
JB Compound
JB Bore Bright
Simichrome Polish
Duct tape
Chalk (for files)
Layout fluid/Dykem Blue
Loctite (Blue)

FITTING AND SPECIALIZED TOOLS:

Sear and hammer jigs
Lug cutter
Slide "pusher"
Beavertail safety jig
Bench block
Hammer, 8 ounce, ball pein
Hammer, hard plastic
Hammer, soft rubber
Punches, drift, assorted sizes
Punches, pin, assorted sizes
Broaches
Pin vise
Plastic GI toothbrushes
Brushes, soft bristle
Screwdriver set (available from Brownell's, and HIGHLY recommended) with short and long shafts
Non-skid mat
Safety glasses
Apron
A good, quality vise, with padded jaws.

Hope all of this helps. Good luck, and remember...ask questions!

 

[ugaarguy]

One other thing, by now Bill Ruger should have proved that a top-quality investment casting is eual to an average forging. As a practical matter, there isn't any meaningful difference if the quality is there. A poor casting and badly machined forging are both junk.

Well said, poor waorkmanship leads to poor quality, no matter what method is used.

 

[XavierBreath]

So I'm down to the $420 SA GI Champion that's parked. So maybe I'll go that route and strip the frame & slide and refinish them.

Hard chrome. Think hard chrome. Here's a description of various finishes. To be honest, on the last ones I refinished, I had a pro do a teflon coating, simply because it was fascinating. The teflon is already wearing off the high spots. My older hard chrome pistols still show no wear.

Consider sending your finished pistol to a pro such as Fords or Tripps. It's worth the investment. Trying to do it yourself is kind of like trying to paint a car for the first time. The finish can enhance or ruin the gun. The cost difference between a pro and buying all the supplies to do it yourself is negligible in the end when you consider the results. $180 at Tripps. $190 at Fords. Guaranteed satisfaction at either.

 

[Old Fuff]

Powderman has laid it out nicely...

Now get out your Brownell's catalog and add up the total cost of the tools and supplies that he listed.

Of course you can use the tool on later projects, but to do the job right you will need most of them for completing the first one. That said the best of tools won’t provide the necessary skill and experience to use them.

It hardly pays to buy the best quality (and therefore most expensive) parts, and then do a half-way job of fitting them – hence the need for the tools, jigs, and fixtures.

Also a set of blueprints is often handy, although I question how much many of today’s parts makers pay any attention to them.

And don’t put too much faith in the term, “drop in.” If the part(s) in question can truly just drop into any frame (or whatever) the fit can’t be too precise.

And yes, if you go to a plated finish do have it done professionally. I was trying to suggest that you discuss the different options with Dave. Also don’t strip the Parkerizing. After you degrease it you would have the perfect base coat for one of the spray-on finishes – if you go that route. Of course if the parts were plated the original finish would be removed.

 

[KC&97TA]

So far, I have built 3 1911's from the ground up, and worked on quite a few others. Here is what I have learned so far:

do you have pictures?

 

[ugaarguy]

Alright, this started as an idea for a carry gun for when I move back to Ga. Along those lines it's dawned on me that SA offers the GI Champion parked in a "lightweight" version with aluminium frame which would be better for carry with the weight savings. If I can find one used or a new one at a good price I think that will be the base for this build. You guys have pretty well convinced me that the SA GI models will be an easier and more economical way to customize a 1911. Yes, I know I could just buy a loaded lightweight champion and save money, but thats not the point. The idea here is to customize it myself. I'd love to build one from the frame up, but thanks to the advice from several of you I see that customizing an existing pistol and learning some of the skills that way first is the better idea. I can always do a ground up build later. After all, I'm young and single - also known as the condition of having nothing but time, money, and ideas.