Contemplating 1911 Build

[Vern Humphrey]

I think that's a wise decision. For most of us, the value of building a .45 is in the education it provides us. As my dad used to say, "If you want an education, pick Medicine, not poker."

 

[Powderman]

do you have pictures?

I wish.

The first one was the first 1911 I ever built (or owned!) Took a while to get it done, and I was very lucky, most of the parts dropped right in with very little or no slop.

The chore was the front sight. In trying to install a front sight that worked and stayed in place, I learned how to (a) properly fit a sight tenon, (b) how to fit a wide tenon front sight, (c) how to apply solder to a front sight by capillary action, and also, (d) how to properly install a stake-on sight.

Lesson learned: Get the dovetail cut!

I tweaked the gun here and there, and finally got it working well, cold bluing and all! Times got hard, and the 1911 got left in a pawn shop in Iowa.

The second one was built for a friend. He lost it in transit between duty stations, when a baggage attendant decided to break into his luggage.

The third one went to another soldier I have not had contact with in years--it was ticking along like a Timex when I last saw it, though!

 

[soutex50]

Just my .02 cents, I built an Officers size slide on a GM frame......no easy task but that's what I wanted. Wilson's will sell you one for nearly two grand, I don't have two grand, at least not yet. Anyways, if you do build and it works reliably every time, then nothing will compare to the satisfaction you will get from having built your own to your liking.

 

[ugaarguy]

A few more questions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the commander size 1911 is simply a full size frame with a 4.25" Bbl & Slide; while the officers uses a shortened grip and dust cover on the frame coupled with a 3" top end, right? If so I'm thinking of adding a beavertail grip safety to the SA GI 1911 I already have and then fitting a 4.25" top end to the frame. Is this doable, or am I still better off getting a SA GI Champion that already has the shorter top end, and the option of an aluminium frame for weight savings?

 

[XavierBreath]

the commander size 1911 is simply a full size frame with a 4.25" Bbl & Slide; while the officers uses a shortened grip and dust cover on the frame coupled with a 3" top end, right?

Correct. A few of the micro sized 1911s are unique unto themselves. Paraordnance makes a couple of those.

If so I'm thinking of adding a beavertail grip safety to the SA GI 1911 I already have and then fitting a 4.25" top end to the frame. Is this doable, or am I still better off getting a SA GI Champion that already has the shorter top end, and the option of an aluminium frame for weight savings?

The dustcover on the Government frame will be to long for the Commander sized slide. It will all fit, it will just look funny. As an option, you could cut down the dustcover. Whether this should be undertaken is something you must weigh.

 

[ugaarguy]

The dustcover on the Government frame will be to long for the Commander sized slide. It will all fit, it will just look funny.

You mean like this:
Standard

"Champion"

 

[XavierBreath]

Don't just eyeball it. Hold a tape measure up to the picture and compare lengths from slide stop hole to front of dustcover.

 

[ugaarguy]

Yep, I see that the Champion's dust cover is about 1/4" shorter than the Standard. Of course, SA's champion is a 4" top end, not 4&1/4" like a standard commander. Regardless, I can see how the standard dust cover could be a bit long on a commander length slide. It wouldn't look the best, but with the proper length recoil spring I can also see that it can be done. As for cutting the dust cover I'm not opposed to it. I'll have to radius the frame to .220 for the SA frame specific beavertail anyway. So if I cut the dust cover I'll do it at the same time I install the beavertail so the finish can be applied at the same time. Thanks for letting me pick your brain Xavier, and Old Fuff, and the rest of you folks who are helping me plan this. I'll do it sooner or later. Sooner if people quit offering me other guns like a refinished, but otherwise original, matching serial #s, 1917 production, DWM Luger for $500. :banghead: I'm still contemplating that one.

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt's Commander frame is not simply a Government Model frame that's had the dust cover shortened. There are internal modifications, the most important being a lengthened recoil spring tunnel at the back. The Officers Model ACP is built on a modified Commander, not Government Model frame.

Returning to the Springer 4" vs. the Colt 4 1/4" the difference is because the latter has a barrel bushing where the former does not, and making room for the bushing requires that extra 1/4"

You can build a Commander length pistol using a cut-down (at the front) Government Model Frame, but you will end up with a short recoil spring tunnel, and that can, and often does, cause reliability problems. Using a true Commander frame and slide will elininate those problems. The Commander/Officers ACP barrels are also different then the one used in the Government Model in that the lower barrel lug is modified at the front.

Numrich used to make (and may still make) a conversion kit for the Government Model that consisted of a short slide with all of the internal components, and a 2-spring recoil spring system to fit in the shortened spring tunnel. Sometimes it actually worked...

This present discussion of frme/slide combinations is an excellent example of why potential gun builders need to do their homework first...

 

[KC&97TA]

This present discussion of frme/slide combinations is an excellent example of why potential gun builders need to do their homework first...

I almost ventured into building a Champion/Commander out of a GI/Gov't a few months back, till someone let me know that it wasn't a good idea. If you put them side by side field stripped in real life, you'll see it for yourself, the different machine work that's into them. I ended up just buying an Older Champion Mil-spec, that may see some modification.

There's alot more to building a gun, like I posed earlier, 1911's are not Lego's, and as you see you were being told it would work, which it will, but it'll have issues that you don't want to deal with.

 

[Powderman]

There is one other method you can take, and that is to purchase what you need bit by bit.

The tools I listed are the proper ones for the job. No one said you had to buy them all at once, though! And it only hurts once--the tools will last almost forever, as long as you take care of them.

So, buy the thing in bits and pieces! Buy the frame and slide first, lap the rails and fit them together. Install the innards to the slide. Next, get the barrel and the associated tools.

To save yourself some grief, I recommend the Briley Spherical Bushing. This will give you a match fit without the headache.

Once all of that is done, procure the innards for the frame, if necessary, one bit at a time. Now, buy the beavertail (if you want one) and the jig.

Work slow, and fit each part properly.

The day will finally come when you get everything out, and you realize that all you have to do is to assemble it. Trust me, when you are doing your first complete assembly with working parts, you'll hear harps playing. There's nothing quite as satisfying.

 

[ugaarguy]

Old Fuff, once again, thank you for your guidance. It looks like I'll be hunting down a GI Lightweight. Once I have that I'll start the custom work on frame parts like ignition group and safeties. After that I'll decide if want to keep the carbon steel slide with 4" conical bbl or move to traditional 4.25" bbl and bushing in a stainless commander slide. I'm looking forward to doing this, but I wanna do it right. Thanks for all the info and accumulated knowledge folks.

 

[ugaarguy]

Talk some sense into me

Alright folks, once more I have questions - I know recurring theme. I've seen that Correia is doing another STI group buy. Should I a) buy an STI frame and do a ground up build or b) delay customizing and get a complte STI pistol at the prices Correia can get them for? I'm starting to think that the STI is gonna be a ton of pistol for the money. (I decided to pass on the Luger I was offered. It's a very nice pistol, but Lugers aren't my thing and 1911s are.)

 

[BullfrogKen]

ugaarguy said: I've seen that Correia is doing another STI group buy. Should I a) buy an STI frame and do a ground up build or b) delay customizing and get a complte STI pistol at the prices Correia can get them for?

Buy a complete gun.

Never build one before? Don't have any friends nearby who have, successfully? Stay away from building.


There are a lot of things you need to do to fit a part into an unfinished gun. You need tools. You need patience . . . skills . . . experience.

I spent a week at Jim Garthwaite's shop building a Commander in one of his classes. We spent hours fitting slides to the frame. Nearly 8 hours, under supervision. Same with fitting the barrel. Then the trigger group and safeties. Even still parts got trashed because too much was removed . . . OK Jim, I need to buy another one of these . . .

Your gun looks easy to build. It comes apart easily, goes together easily. Hey, it should. It left the shop with everything already pre-fitted to tolerances. The parts you buy, those are not fitted. You can buy 'drop-in' parts, but, they never are. Grip safeties, no big deal. Sears, the thumb safety, those parts you can't "eyeball", and only the machinists or a genius can do it from reading a book. Fitting a barrel link properly, same deal.


If you want to do something like this, and not buy a buttload of tools, or buy parts again and again until you get it right (maybe) . . . Take one of Jim's classes. He does 'em every year or so. Its not a mainstay of his business, but he does it every so often. He has all the tools, will make sure you understand why and what you are doing, and teach you the right way things are done. And, you get to spend a week with a hell of a guy. Hope you like cigars, too.


Edit - By the way, you take one of his classes. . . You build ANY 1911 variant you want. Want a FORGED Springfield LW frame. Sure. He'll get one, and he doesn't need to buy a complete gun to get it. In my class of four:

1. I built a LW Commander in .45 ACP
2. Another built a LW Commander slide/Officer frame .45 ACP.
3. Another built a LW Commander slide/Officer frame 9x23 with a spare fitted 9mm barrel.
4. Another built a steel Commander .45 ACP, with another complete top end fitted with 9x23 and 9mm barrels.

Ambi safety? Sure. No ambi? OK. Sights - Gold bead? OK. Night? OK. Checker the front strap, plain? Sure. Whatever. Its YOURS. YOU spec it.

Think about it . . . .

 

[grendelbane]

Sears, the thumb safety, those parts you can't "eyeball", and only the machinists or a genius can do it from reading a book.

For some reason, in the early '80s I thought it would be fun to build a .45.

It was, but it was also a lot of work. I know I am not a machinist, and I am seldom accused of being a genius, but I did get a couple working and functioning. It was great fun.

My last 2 examples I am quite proud of. Experience is one reason, but I have also enjoyed the advantages of Al Gore's internet. With the good advice available from this source, it would have been twice as easy as what I went through over 20 years ago.

I have destroyed my share of parts over the years. It is certainly not an economical proposition. Still, I think that the average guy can do it, if he takes his time.

No shooting experience can compare to successfully firing a pistol which you have assembled yourself.

 

[Old Fuff]

I would go with BullfrogKen.

I too have built guns, but I didn't do it by starting out with a pile of parts on the bench, and an open shop manual. I have also had a fair number of inexperienced homebuilders show up at my door asking for help. And in several cases I have had to tell someone that the have ruined a major (read that to mean "expensive") part. Now if money is no object, build away... But the builders I've met $$$ was a critical issue, and none of them thought that they could go wrong - even though some of them didn't know the correct names for the parts they were using. Ya' really shouldn't be thinking about building a gun if you don't know the differences between a Government Model and Commander frame, or how to measure run-up. It is far wiser to tinker with a factory assembled gun, (and the way they make them today you may have to tinker just to get the blasted thing to run), then to start buying parts on a mix & match basis and then try to put them together. Never forget, today's makers don't even go by a standard set of blueprints.

 

[ugaarguy]

And, you get to spend a week with a hell of a guy. Hope you like cigars, too.

Alright, I've the cigars & single malts, and the desire to do it right. How do I get in touch Mr. Garthwaite? This will have to wait until after my enlistment ends this spring, so hopefully he does the classes in the summer.

I think the STI will be a more economical solution and still be less common than most 1911s. Although I'm still hankerin to build one and truly make it mine; I'll have get to one of Mr. Garthwaite's class hopefully sooner than later.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Try Google.


Then, if you haven't found him. Ask me again.



Not be be snide. . . But you've gotten this far. Jim's been building guns for about 30 years. You'll find out plenty if you look. Bet you'll even find some of his guns for sale on auction sites and such.

 

[ugaarguy]

Try Google.


Then, if you haven't found him. Ask me again.

I am an idiot. I found Mr. Gartwaite's info. I also found out that Jim Stroh is about 30 mins down the road from home in Ga.:banghead: I'll be e-mailing Mr. Stroh soon and see if he'll teach a young buck his way around a 1911. I'm sorry if I've sounded like a total retard at times on this thread, but I needed knowledge. I figured you folks on THR could help supply that knowledge and you have. I guess that working in gun store from literally as soon as I was old enough too has gotten me exposed to so many factory pistols that they've lost their luster. The bad thing is makes you want something truly unique. With me paying a smith to do it for me would never compare to putting the work into it myself. This will probably be a one time deal, but it will be the one pistol that is truly mine, more than anything else I own. And there is no price that can be put on that.