Bat Rastard
Member
I am a Glock man at heart. But think that might not be the best path.
Enlighten me my wise friends.
Enlighten me my wise friends.
Contemplating Major 9. Any good entry level guns out there?
- Thread starter Bat Rastard
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AZAndy
Member
A heckuva lot of competition shooters use Glocks. What's your objection to one? I don't own one myself, but I see the USPSA equipment statistics every year and Glock is always way up the list.
1KPerDay
Member
Only 9 Major guns I've seen and shot were STIs, Limcats and the like. Not sure there is a "good" "entry level" 9Maj pistol out there unless your entry fee is about $2 grand. I could be wrong.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
If I remember the rules correctly the only Division that you can make major with a less than .40 cal bullet is open.
So you would need an open pistol which is not really entry level$.
Hope you find something that works for you.
So you would need an open pistol which is not really entry level$.
Hope you find something that works for you.
WestKentucky
Member
Nothing without a fully supported chamber. That excludes Glock. I would look into the 9mm double stack 1911s if I were dead set on 9major.
If you consider Open division as a good entry level division, get a 2011 in 9 and go to the races.
Doublehelix
Member
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Yep, these are the correct answers. You cannot shoot 9 Major unless you opt for Open, which = $$$$$
AZAndy
Member
thomas15
Member
The best place for a Glock in my opinion is production class where everyone is shooting minor. Major in 9mm exceeds my comfort level but there are those that do it.
Check Brian Enos chit-chat forum there are numerous threads on 9mm major and also using Glocks in competition. You could start in the sub forums titled "Glock" and "Open" and "General Reloading..sub forum 9mm/38".
I'm not sure but you will prolly need to install a compensator that prolly means an aftermarket barrel. Dudedog is correct for major in Limited the minimum caliber is 40 (appendix D2-5). You would need to shoot Open. That means any advantage you get shooting Major completely evaporates plus more unless you are using an optic.
Check Brian Enos chit-chat forum there are numerous threads on 9mm major and also using Glocks in competition. You could start in the sub forums titled "Glock" and "Open" and "General Reloading..sub forum 9mm/38".
I'm not sure but you will prolly need to install a compensator that prolly means an aftermarket barrel. Dudedog is correct for major in Limited the minimum caliber is 40 (appendix D2-5). You would need to shoot Open. That means any advantage you get shooting Major completely evaporates plus more unless you are using an optic.
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Jim Watson
Member
There is discussion of 9mm Major Glock on Benos as long as ten years ago.
As said, it will put you in Open vs 2011 and CZ raceguns. And the cost of setting up even a Glock for Open is not low.
The trend these days seems to Carry Optics, especially now that they allow more modifications and 140mm magazines.
As said, it will put you in Open vs 2011 and CZ raceguns. And the cost of setting up even a Glock for Open is not low.
The trend these days seems to Carry Optics, especially now that they allow more modifications and 140mm magazines.
I'm actually contemplating a 9 major open gun purchase right now. This raises a few issues. Let's break them down:
USPSA divisions
9mm major is only "a thing" in Open. In no other division will the extra velocity get you major scoring while pushing a sub-40-diameter bullet.* I assume you know this, and that we are necessarily talking about open guns.
Open Glocks
I have shot for several years with a guy who had an 9 major open gun built out of a Glock. Well, actually, he used two of those guns - one before a case blew up and the replacement one after. They were built by these guys: https://stores.sjcguns.com/about-us/ , if I recall correctly. Except for the one detonation, the guns run very reliably. He does go through some c-mores, though.
K.C. Eusebio tried to make open/9 major Glocks work for 3 years (while he was on "team Glock" under contract). They broke a lot (built by a different smith than the ones I linked to above). KC talked about this in a Shooter's Mindset podcast not too long ago if you're curious.
By virtue of their flexy frame, Glocks are tough on frame mounted optics, and its also very hard to get the dot to stay in the window with them. And, of course, you can't ever get to the kind of trigger that all the 2011-type open guns will have. But the base gun is cheap, and mags are super cheap. If you can find a smith to do the work/sell you one, you can get into one for around that $2-2.5k range.
Cheap 2011's
There aren't any you can buy new. And the "entry level" ones ($3.5k) often turn out to be finicky. If you look long and hard enough, you can sometimes get a used one for a lot less, but then you have to assess the wear situation and whether the company or smith who made it will help you overhaul it for a reasonable price.
CZ Checkmate
Sweet gun at a little over $3k last time I checked. It will eat slide stops like any CZ, but I hear this is a pretty good gun from the factory that will run 9 major.
Tanfoglio open guns
Tanfo (imported by EAA) has an off-the-shelf open gun offering that is in the $2k price range (the Gold Team Eric). You can get it in 38 super or 9mm. Making major out of these with 9mm is reportedly challenging because they come with 12 popple holes in the barrel (in addition to the comp) - you need a huge amount of powder and gas to actually hit major with that much porting bleeding pressure. There are guys doing it, but that gun really only makes sense in 38 super. And the comp put onto a non-ported/poppled barrel isn't very effective by itself from what I have read/seen.
There may be a better solution that is just becoming available. A guy (Durso/kneelingatlas) who has built a lot of Tanfo (and CZ) open guns has just come out with a Tanfo-compatible compensator that is effective enough not to need popple holes. There's an active thread or 2 on the Enos forum where it is being discussed (and many prior threads while he was developing it): https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/266794-tanfo-9mm-major-open-gun-questions/ . This opens up the possibility of getting a Tanfo Limited ($1.1k), buying the appropriate replacement barrel, threading on the comp (probably $600-ish for those parts and the labor, unless you can do the labor yourself), and you're ready to stick on a red-dot.
With any Tanfo Open gun, lack of available big-stick 170mm mags has been a big issue, but MBX has some that some can make work, and Taylor Freelance just dropped a 170mm mag extension (total length, not the extension itself); I have one in the mail that may arrive today.
This approach is very interesting to me, as I've been using a Tanfoglio LTD in limited for the past 4 years. I know how those guns work, how to fix them, what breaks, how good the trigger can be, etc. They have approximately nothing in common with a Glock, except that, when everything is in spec, they run very reliably and are a lot less picky than most 2011's I see.
* ETA - mcb reminds me that technically one could shoot a 6-shot revolver using 9 major and get major scoring. Basically nobody shoots 6 shot revolvers in USPSA since they allowed minor-only 8-shot revolvers (with lots of 8-shot array/positions, this is very advantageous), so this is more academic than of any realistic consequence, but he's correct. Technically correct.... the best kind of correct.
USPSA divisions
9mm major is only "a thing" in Open. In no other division will the extra velocity get you major scoring while pushing a sub-40-diameter bullet.* I assume you know this, and that we are necessarily talking about open guns.
Open Glocks
I have shot for several years with a guy who had an 9 major open gun built out of a Glock. Well, actually, he used two of those guns - one before a case blew up and the replacement one after. They were built by these guys: https://stores.sjcguns.com/about-us/ , if I recall correctly. Except for the one detonation, the guns run very reliably. He does go through some c-mores, though.
K.C. Eusebio tried to make open/9 major Glocks work for 3 years (while he was on "team Glock" under contract). They broke a lot (built by a different smith than the ones I linked to above). KC talked about this in a Shooter's Mindset podcast not too long ago if you're curious.
By virtue of their flexy frame, Glocks are tough on frame mounted optics, and its also very hard to get the dot to stay in the window with them. And, of course, you can't ever get to the kind of trigger that all the 2011-type open guns will have. But the base gun is cheap, and mags are super cheap. If you can find a smith to do the work/sell you one, you can get into one for around that $2-2.5k range.
Cheap 2011's
There aren't any you can buy new. And the "entry level" ones ($3.5k) often turn out to be finicky. If you look long and hard enough, you can sometimes get a used one for a lot less, but then you have to assess the wear situation and whether the company or smith who made it will help you overhaul it for a reasonable price.
CZ Checkmate
Sweet gun at a little over $3k last time I checked. It will eat slide stops like any CZ, but I hear this is a pretty good gun from the factory that will run 9 major.
Tanfoglio open guns
Tanfo (imported by EAA) has an off-the-shelf open gun offering that is in the $2k price range (the Gold Team Eric). You can get it in 38 super or 9mm. Making major out of these with 9mm is reportedly challenging because they come with 12 popple holes in the barrel (in addition to the comp) - you need a huge amount of powder and gas to actually hit major with that much porting bleeding pressure. There are guys doing it, but that gun really only makes sense in 38 super. And the comp put onto a non-ported/poppled barrel isn't very effective by itself from what I have read/seen.
There may be a better solution that is just becoming available. A guy (Durso/kneelingatlas) who has built a lot of Tanfo (and CZ) open guns has just come out with a Tanfo-compatible compensator that is effective enough not to need popple holes. There's an active thread or 2 on the Enos forum where it is being discussed (and many prior threads while he was developing it): https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/266794-tanfo-9mm-major-open-gun-questions/ . This opens up the possibility of getting a Tanfo Limited ($1.1k), buying the appropriate replacement barrel, threading on the comp (probably $600-ish for those parts and the labor, unless you can do the labor yourself), and you're ready to stick on a red-dot.
With any Tanfo Open gun, lack of available big-stick 170mm mags has been a big issue, but MBX has some that some can make work, and Taylor Freelance just dropped a 170mm mag extension (total length, not the extension itself); I have one in the mail that may arrive today.
This approach is very interesting to me, as I've been using a Tanfoglio LTD in limited for the past 4 years. I know how those guns work, how to fix them, what breaks, how good the trigger can be, etc. They have approximately nothing in common with a Glock, except that, when everything is in spec, they run very reliably and are a lot less picky than most 2011's I see.
* ETA - mcb reminds me that technically one could shoot a 6-shot revolver using 9 major and get major scoring. Basically nobody shoots 6 shot revolvers in USPSA since they allowed minor-only 8-shot revolvers (with lots of 8-shot array/positions, this is very advantageous), so this is more academic than of any realistic consequence, but he's correct. Technically correct.... the best kind of correct.
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Yeah, if your desire is to shoot a Glock with a dot, that's a much more sensible way to do it.
If your desire is to shoot in open with a 9 major gun, my personal sense is that it's best to leave Glock out of it.
LiveLife
Member
Before we moved to our retirement location, I was thinking about shooting matches again, even 3-gun.
Since I had 2 Glock 22s I used for USPSA Limited/Limited 10/Production and had 40-9 KKM/Lone Wolf conversion barrels, one option I considered was shooting 9 Major with 40-9 conversion barrel (which had thicker chamber and barrel walls with good case base support) and stiffer recoil spring.
9 Major loads are typically loaded very long to stuff more powder in the case (preferably denser slower powders) and factory leade/freebore length may not be long enough but both KKM and Lone Wolf will cut the barrel to fit your 9 Major round's dimensions (to length limit of magazine). You also have the option of ordering longer length barrel to produce higher velocities without increasing powder charge. So for me, using Glock 22 with longer 40-9 conversion barrel and stiffer recoil spring was a low cost option to shoot 9 Major.
But we moved to our retirement location and consideration for shooting USPSA again was done.
If I were to shoot USPSA again, since I have many accurate 40S&W loads developed already that meet minor/major PF, I would just go with 40S&W. And 40S&W brass is plentiful as many reloaders don't reload the caliber.
Besides, IIRC 9 Major originated by 38 Super shooters who wanted cheaper/plentiful brass they shot only once. Unfortunately, many of them do not mark the brass and leave them on the ground for unsuspecting reloaders/range staff to pick up to be sold/reloaded.
Ever come across a 9mm range brass that is really hard to resize? It could be 9 Major brass that have been "slightly" overly expanded, especially at case base area. I inspect these cases closely and toss them if I have any concerns.
Since I had 2 Glock 22s I used for USPSA Limited/Limited 10/Production and had 40-9 KKM/Lone Wolf conversion barrels, one option I considered was shooting 9 Major with 40-9 conversion barrel (which had thicker chamber and barrel walls with good case base support) and stiffer recoil spring.
9 Major loads are typically loaded very long to stuff more powder in the case (preferably denser slower powders) and factory leade/freebore length may not be long enough but both KKM and Lone Wolf will cut the barrel to fit your 9 Major round's dimensions (to length limit of magazine). You also have the option of ordering longer length barrel to produce higher velocities without increasing powder charge. So for me, using Glock 22 with longer 40-9 conversion barrel and stiffer recoil spring was a low cost option to shoot 9 Major.
But we moved to our retirement location and consideration for shooting USPSA again was done.
If I were to shoot USPSA again, since I have many accurate 40S&W loads developed already that meet minor/major PF, I would just go with 40S&W. And 40S&W brass is plentiful as many reloaders don't reload the caliber.
Besides, IIRC 9 Major originated by 38 Super shooters who wanted cheaper/plentiful brass they shot only once. Unfortunately, many of them do not mark the brass and leave them on the ground for unsuspecting reloaders/range staff to pick up to be sold/reloaded.
Ever come across a 9mm range brass that is really hard to resize? It could be 9 Major brass that have been "slightly" overly expanded, especially at case base area. I inspect these cases closely and toss them if I have any concerns.
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LiveLife
Member
I wasn't planning to use a compensated barrel.
All in all, I think if I were to shoot USPSA again, I would likely shoot 40S&W instead to meet major PF.
All in all, I think if I were to shoot USPSA again, I would likely shoot 40S&W instead to meet major PF.
Hmm.... 9 Major gets scored as minor (regardless of power factor - it's the bullet diameter) in everything but open*. So 9 major isn't really a thing in non-open. And playing in open without a compensator sounds... masochistic?
[ETA: * Or, as mcb reminds me, revolver... except you can't use an 8-shot and be scored major, so there is absolutely no reason to do it with a revolver.]
[ETA: * Or, as mcb reminds me, revolver... except you can't use an 8-shot and be scored major, so there is absolutely no reason to do it with a revolver.]
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LiveLife
Member
FYI, potential for case wall failure/rupture with 9 Major loads - https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/10/2/kaboom-the-consequences-of-a-blown-out-case/
mcb
Member
Just to be pedantic. You are allowed to make Major in one other division with a 9mm. Revolver also allows 9mm Major although you are limited to 6-shots if you want to be scored Major.
In my personally experience I have seen lots of guys try to run 9mm Major in Glocks converted to Open guns but most of them have been less reliable then I would want in a competition gun. CZ and 2011 based Open guns on the other hand seem to run 9mm Major pretty good.
But sometimes the fun is more about doing what other say won't work...
In my personally experience I have seen lots of guys try to run 9mm Major in Glocks converted to Open guns but most of them have been less reliable then I would want in a competition gun. CZ and 2011 based Open guns on the other hand seem to run 9mm Major pretty good.
But sometimes the fun is more about doing what other say won't work...
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Dudedog
Contributing Member
Opppsss didn't think about revolver.
thomas15
Member
Just in case it isn't clear, Carry Optics division doesn't have Major power factor and comps are not allowed Appendix D7. The optic cannot be mounted on the frame must be on the slide behind the ejection port and you use a holster suitable for every day carry placed similar to production.
Doublehelix
Member
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And no magwell extensions in Carry Optics either. They must be "Production" type guns, so for example I cannot shoot my P226 Legion SAO in Carry Optics.
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