Controversial Question! Good Shooter vs. Bad Shooter

Mark_Mark

Mark_Mark

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Alright… Like I was telling everyone, I finally leaned to shoot good in the past 2 years with a pistol. Before, I thought if I bought the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. It would make me a top tier shooter. NOPE!

Question : Do you good shooters buy pistol that are good enough for you or buy the BEST of the BEST!

question especially goes to top tier Competition shooters. But if you can pop a can at 50 yards, let me know!!

THANKS!
 
Mark_Mark said:
question especially goes to top tier Competition shooters. But if you can pop a can at 50 yards, let me know!!

THANKS!
Click to expand...
If you can actually hit a pop can offhand with a pistol at 50 yards more often than not, you ARE a top tier shooter. I mean hit the can with the bullet. Not the dirt in front of the can. Not the can NEXT to the can you were actually aiming at.
 
Atavar said:
A good shooter with an entry level firearm will outperform a bad shooter with a world class competition firearm.
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That sums it up. The best money spent here, is in a reasonable gun, and a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and ammo.

Once you get to the point that you can take advantage of a gun that "might" offer more, you "might" decide to go that route, or realize, you probably don't have to, unless you're going into one of the specialty or more focused branches of things.
 
The reason the top shooters buy top tier guns is to close the 1% gap between them and the top shooter in the next lane.
When dealing with lower end guns a couple hundred dollars can make a huge difference.
When dealing with top end guns a couple thousand dollars can make a tiny difference.
 
trackskippy said:
That sums it up. The best money spent here, is in a reasonable gun, and a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and ammo.

Once you get to the point that you can take advantage of a gun that "might" offer more, you "might" decide to go that route, or realize, you probably don't have to, unless you're going into one of the specialty or more focused branches of things.
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it’s amazing to see top Teir shooter pick up a Glock and do double tap like a BOSS

Bob Vogel is AMAZING! and with a glock too!

youtu.be

How to Shoot Insane Double Taps with Bob Vogel

Bob Vogel explains the Vogel Grip and how he controls muzzle rise during rapid fire with Taran Butler.
youtu.be youtu.be
 
Mark_Mark said:
Alright… Like I was telling everyone, I finally leaned to shoot good in the past 2 years with a pistol. Before, I thought if I bought the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST. It would make me a top tier shooter. NOPE!

Question : Do you good shooters buy pistol that are good enough for you or buy the BEST of the BEST!

question especially goes to top tier Competition shooters. But if you can pop a can at 50 yards, let me know!!

THANKS!
Click to expand...

I buy what esthetically appeals to me, for the most part.

I'm pretty sure the best possible accuracy of whatever quality gun I buy is going to exceed whatever I'm capable of getting out of it.
 
I'd commented awhile back and I think it was on another of your threads... regarding a buddy that was an accomplished guitarist. He advised me to learn to play on a cheap, crappy (but playable) guitar. Then, when I was able to wring out everything that guitar had, I could pick up his Paul Reed Smith or LP Studio and sound amazing.

So to answer your question, I dunno. I never learned to play guitar and I'm still not a great shooter.

I do try to buy the best I can afford... whether it's guns, tools, boots, fishing rods or sunglasses. Anything else I'm ok cheaping out on.
 
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So a few years back.....
I was training with a few guys from a local police department, we had been training for 2.5-3 years together. The best guy on their team also shot competitive on a weekly basis. This one particular training session, a challenge was put up for everyone in the class. "Who's got better trigger control". Started with a dueling tree, that eliminated 80% of the class. Then it proceeded to a sudden death match, each person shoots one time single handed. If you miss, you're out. Those who make it take 3 steps back. This whent on until it was me and the PD guy who competes weekly. Long story short, I beat him, I was in no way a better shot than him. All I can say is that day I was very well in tune with my stock G19 gen3. 65 yrds single hand, I had around 12,000 rounds through it.
Still have the t-shirt to prove it.
 
Mark_Mark said:
But if you can pop a can at 50 yards, let me know!!
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A pop can is approximately 3"x5". at 50 yards, the smallest target I'm usually shooting at in competition is a 4" circle inside a 6" square head of an IDPA target. So it isn't an outrageously difficult shot.

Hitting a golf ball at 15 yards isn't difficult either...when shooting for who's going to buy afterwards

To answer your question. I but a gun that won't handicap my shooting my best. If I have a gun which will group 4" at 50 yards, that means all my shots at that range will be within 2" of where I'm aiming
 
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I'm not a competition shooter; I can hit a coke can at 50 yards some of the time though - I once was in daily practice and could do it a lot of the time.

I can hit my 6" target at 75 Yards with my Blackhawk and Single Six. The last time, I was able to do multiple 5/6 with the Single Six and one 6/6, before I was fatigued, some standing, and some sitting rested off a knee. While that's not competition good, I would notice if the gun or ammo is subpar.

I buy guns that are the type I like, not necessarily guns based on an accuracy potential. If I wanted for example a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Magnum, I'd get one, and if when shooting it on paper, I wasn't able to get the level of accuracy that is acceptable to me, I'd swap and get another. If all Blackhawks were known to be 6" guns at 50 yards, I'd have to look elsewhere as I practice a lot on 4" discs.
 
Jonny2guns said:
If you miss, you're out. Those who make it take 3 steps back. This whent on until it was me and the PD guy who competes weekly. Long story short, I beat him, I was in no way a better shot than him
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We've done that during classes, just for "grins". In competition it is a balance for speed and accuracy. Sometimes good enough, really is. In a contest like this it is more about mental focus. He was shooting a1911, I was shooting my M&P9...I was the last man standing

I regularly shoot with a guy at our local matches and he usually comes out above me in the final rankings, but he's never beat me at a Sanctioned Match because his nerves get the better of him
 
I shot PPC. I will have to dig out my Rule Book for the Official designations but, for a while, I used a S&W Model 15 for Duty Leg, a S&W Model 36-1 for Off Duty, and a S&W Model 14 for the Distinguished and the Unlimited(?) classes. (For non registered matches, I would use a S&W Model 25-2.) At one match, a fellow competitor loaned me his Davis modified S&W Model 64-3. Holy smokes! That thing was amazing but heavy. My scores went up a couple of points but my X count nearly doubled! At the end of the season the revolver was offered to me. He was retiring from competition and thought I could use it. I had to sell the Model 14 to afford it but…

IMG_1078.jpeg
IMG_1079.jpeg

It came with Pachmyar Presentation grips on it. Halfway through the winter season I noticed I was getting two distinct but overlapping vertical groups. I switched to a set of factory target stocks and my oval shaped group suddenly became round! The factory target stocks were not to my liking so, a rasp, some sand paper and a little effort got me these.

IMG_1086.jpeg

These stocks fit my hand and that round group shrank by about 1/4.

I eventually bought a 6” S&W Model 686 to use in the Distinguished Leg. I won a 4” S&W Model 686-1 and used it in the Duty Leg. I noticed my scores with the 686 and the 64-3 were very close. Right at the end on my competitive career they overlapped enough I was using the 6” Model 686 for both legs.

So, arrow or Indian? Once I gained my skills, it would be hard to differentiate.

Kevin
 
Best of the best? Above my pay grade.

If you can't shoot a MK II, or a Single Six, what would you do? Should you buy a high dollar target gun, or are you better off with a used $350 Ruger and spending the difference on ammo and learning to shoot something that isn't considered the best of the best?
 
Atavar said:
The competition I would like to shoot would be everyone shooting a box stock 100% unmodified firearm of the same model using the same lot of ammo.
Make it actually shooter vs shooter instead of shooter vs dollars.
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You'd still find some box stock 100% unmodified pistols would shoot better groups than others. You could have them benched in a ransom rest first though to make sure they all shot to the same standard.
 
StrawHat said:
I shot PPC. I will have to dig out my Rule Book for the Official designations but, for a while, I used a S&W Model 15 for Duty Leg, a S&W Model 36-1 for Off Duty, and a S&W Model 14 for the Distinguished and the Unlimited(?) classes. (For non registered matches, I would use a S&W Model 25-2.) At one match, a fellow competitor loaned me his Davis modified S&W Model 64-3. Holy smokes! That thing was amazing but heavy. My scores went up a couple of points but my X count nearly doubled! At the end of the season the revolver was offered to me. He was retiring from competition and thought I could use it. I had to sell the Model 14 to afford it but…

View attachment 1195248
View attachment 1195249

It came with Pachmyar Presentation grips on it. Halfway through the winter season I noticed I was getting two distinct but overlapping vertical groups. I switched to a set of factory target stocks and my oval shaped group suddenly became round! The factory target stocks were not to my liking so, a rasp, some sand paper and a little effort got me these.

View attachment 1195250

These stocks fit my hand and that round group shrank by about 1/4.

I eventually bought a 6” S&W Model 686 to use in the Distinguished Leg. I won a 4” S&W Model 686-1 and used it in the Duty Leg. I noticed my scores with the 686 and the 64-3 were very close. Right at the end on my competitive career they overlapped enough I was using the 6” Model 686 for both legs.

So, arrow or Indian? Once I gained my skills, it would be hard to differentiate.

Kevin
Click to expand...
Wow, gorgeous!
 
Buy the best equipment you can comfortably afford.

If you practice enough you will eventually reach the limit of your equipment, and at that point you make the decision as to whether you invest in better stuff, or be satisfied with your current level of proficiency.

Of course if you aren't planning on practicing seriously, it really doesn't matter, does it?
 
lysanderxiii said:
Buy the best equipment you can comfortably afford.

If you practice enough you will eventually reach the limit of your equipment, and at that point you make the decision as to whether you invest in better stuff, or be satisfied with your current level of proficiency.

Of course if you aren't planning on practicing seriously, it really doesn't matter, does it?
Click to expand...
Best Answer Every!

I’m going to pull out my Go Fast Guns after the Mid-Winter break (yes, it’s a week long holiday here in PNW) work up some nice RMR 147 & 124 Match Winner loads, even some plain old 115 Berry Budget loads. Let’s see if my shooting has gotten better. And by the Shooting season, try my hand on a Steel Challenge match and try not finish dead last.
 
I am coming at the subject very much from the point of view of practical pistol competition like USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA. I started shooting USPSA with an XD-40. That modest handgun took me to B-class. I then switched to revolver for the most part. I took a stock N-frame revolver to B-class in both Revolver and later in Production divisions. I never made it past B-class in any division before I took a break to pursue other interests. That said a high B-class shooter ( I am still ranked on the top 20 list for both Production and Revolver) is in the top 15-20% of most divisions.

USPSA taught me that the cost of the equipment is not nearly as important as the equipment you have working every time. I bought good enough equipment that I could make it 100% reliable. Depending on how skilled you are and how much your willing to work on your equipment that reliability will cost you various amounts. If you're handy and willing to spend a lot of time making your hardware reliable you can make moderately expensive equipment work great and take it along way in the sport. If your not able or willing to invest that time and skill then you have to pay for that reliability. At least for IDPA and USPSA my equipment never limited my performance in a meaningful way. My score was always way more dependent on my ability to execute on the stage than any speed or accuracy limitation of my equipment.

If I remember right Ben Stoeger in his meteoric rise in USPSA/IPSC took a basically stock Berretta 92 all the way to Grand Master in Production. Jerry Miculek always ran a nearly stock 625 during his dominance of Revolver division. Within the fairly strick equipment constraints of a competitive sport like USPSA or IDPA the Indian is way more important that the arrow (Assuming the arrow works 100% of the time). Even at a club level I beat way too many shooters with very expensive semi-autoa using my revolver to believe that equipment can fix a bad shooter.

-rambling
 
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A better gun doesn't make you a better shooter but it makes your shots better.

Give a novice a top notch gun and you will see how well they can shoot. They will be better with that gun than with average gun. As the quality of the gun goes lower so will their accuracy.

Give a top shooter the worst possible gun, one that can't hit a target and they'll will shoot poorly. Everything else will be done well but the result will be poor.
 
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