Converting a Model 60 to 9mm?

[Ardent]

Hi guys, I'm really interested in the possibility of converting a S&W Model 60 to 9mm. I love the little steel framed .357 '60's, and the only thing I might love more is a little steel framed 9mm '60. I hear the 9mm really picks up speed out of short revolvers relative to .38's etc and is especially attractive due to low(er) muzzle blast and recoil vs .38+P's and .357's. Now, any hope of having a spare cylinder made up for 9mm? (And who might be able to do such a thing).

A last and final consideration, given how well 9mm supposedly performs out of short revolvers, what do you believe contributes to this performance? The short case? Given similar bullet weights (124gr 9mm, 125gr .357) I hear the 9mm bites on the heels of the .357 with a LOT less powder (I've never verified this, just reiterating what others have said/speculated). Apparently it beats the .38's too... How so?

Now a last consideration spinning off the one above, as I'm a rather experimental handloader I've played with a 1" cased .38 based on a .357 case. I used to cut the cases down to 1.0", and load them with 3.0 or 3.5grs of Titegroup stuffed onto the primer by dacron filling capped by a 158gr SWC or the like for ultra quiet varminting loads out of my Marlin 1894. They worked like a charm, surprising "pop" off very little powder. Do you think that by cutting down .357 cases (to deal with pressures likely close to 9mm) and loading 9mm type powders (Universal, Titegroup) with bonafied .357" bullets you could reach performace equal to the 9mm's in a short revolver in the M60? I'll have to try this and find out... But I'd still like a 9mm cylinder... As one more thought, if one could find a way to size 9mm brass appropriately for .357" bullets (as the S&W 940's used a .357" bore anyhow) this might work alright and improve accuracy slighty too...

Lots of thinking in this post.

 

[Majic]

Why bother with cutting cases as the .357 magnum outperforms a 9mm anyway? Why not just use a powder that will give you the pressures you want? The volume of a .38spl case is not completely used in most loads as the case originated when the first smokeless powders were developed and they were bulky. Remember the .38spl was used to develop the .357 magnum. The magnum case was lengthened just so it wouldn't fit in a .38spl chamber as all .38spl firearms couldn't handle the increase pressure. Just download a .357 magnum case or load up a .38 spl case to get your desired pressures.

 

[gunhappy]

I have a mod 64-2 that I would love to see a 9mm cylinder for...just cuz I likes to be different!

 

[Brian Williams]

Yep it can be done you have two choices; One is quick and dirty, Just have a 'smith ream the chambers to 9mm and have at it, Two is to get from S&W a cylinder for a 940 and have it installed on your 60.
Problems with both
Option 1, Will allow you to shoot all three in your gun, but almost every 38 or 357 will split because the case is no longer supported due to the 9mm having a larger diameter at the base and the 9mms will have a crappy chamber to jump thru, and you have to use moonclips for the 9mms with this type of conversion because it will not have a true 9mm chamber for the case mouth to rest on for the proper headspace.
Option 2, Is expensive and I am not sure that S&W will have a cylinder any more. First you have to know whether you gun is a J frame or a Magnum J frame, I am assuming that it is a Magnum because you talk about shooting 357s thru it. so you have to get a corresponding cylinder. A J frame takes a cylinder for a 940 or 940-1 and a Maugnum J frame takesa cylinder from a 940-2, (the Scandium guns have a larger space in the frame due to the short barrel extension). Then you have to find a 'smith to fit the cylinder.
One last option is to find a S&W 940 and swap cylinders, again you have to be careful of the frame size (magnum or regular) I had a 940-1 and the cylinder swapped from it to both my 60-4 and 642, I hae since sold it and got a cylinder from S&W and had it installed in the 642 to make it a 942. This cylinder still fits in my 3" adjustable sighted 60-4.
A 3" adjustable sighted 60 with both cylinders would be a great TEOTWAWKI gun, would be able to shoot anything 357 caliber.

That brings up the accuracy issue of 9mms or .355s thru a .357 barrel. At Nosepicking distance being able to keep it on paper/COM @ 15 yds is pretty good, Mine @ 10 yds will keep a 5" group with the 9mm cylinder and a 5" group with the 38 cylinder, so accuracy is in the shooter. I do not practice with this gun enough but is is my every day carry gun. I shoot my S&W 13 and 35 a whole lot more.

 

[Brian Williams]

What I would love to have is a S&W Mod 12 with a 3" mid-weight tapered barrel, fixed sights, and a little Scandium added to the frame with a swap cylinder setup for 357 and 9mm.

 

[cookekdjr]

I wouldn't dream of cutting a beloved S&W just so I could fire the euro-pellet out of it.
If you want a steel revolver that fires 9mm, simply buy a Taurus IB...or find an old Ruger sp101 in 9mm.
Of course, everybody's different...
Let us know what you decide to do.
-David

 

[Ardent]

Why bother with cutting cases as the .357 magnum outperforms a 9mm anyway? Why not just use a powder that will give you the pressures you want? The volume of a .38spl case is not completely used in most loads as the case originated when the first smokeless powders were developed and they were bulky. Remember the .38spl was used to develop the .357 magnum. The magnum case was lengthened just so it wouldn't fit in a .38spl chamber as all .38spl firearms couldn't handle the increase pressure. Just download a .357 magnum case or load up a .38 spl case to get your desired pressures.

Thanks guys, good points, I'll have to address them seperately or I'll likely forget some...

As for the above, you hit the nail on the head without even knowing it. The reason for shortening cases is that the .357 case is grossly oversized for many faster powders (as is its parent the .38, but I use only .357 cases due to their pressure capabilites). By cutting the cases down to 1" and dacron filling (reducing case capacity in effect even more) I achieved a whopping 35% to 40% more velocity on the identical light loads of tightgroup versus uncut cases on the same amount of powder with no dacron. AND, the loads were notably quieter out of the carbine than the not cut down cases on the same powder charge, due to faster and more complete powder burn. While not noted in handgun ballistics, the same principles that are behind the 6mmPPC and the 6mmBR, 7mmBR, and .30BR are at work in handgun cartridges; efficiency. Now if you look at the amount of powder a .357 requires to launch a 125gr bullet to a given velocity from a snubby (which will likely be a slower powder than the 9mm as well) and compare that to the amount of powder a 9mm burns to get in the same ballpark from a snubby the difference is huge. The 9mm is much more efficient and has much less recoil and muzzle blast. Those are huge positives to me. This, in effect, is why I cut down the .357 cases.

Yep it can be done you have two choices; One is quick and dirty, Just have a 'smith ream the chambers to 9mm and have at it, Two is to get from S&W a cylinder for a 940 and have it installed on your 60.
Problems with both
Option 1, Will allow you to shoot all three in your gun, but almost every 38 or 357 will split because the case is no longer supported due to the 9mm having a larger diameter at the base and the 9mms will have a crappy chamber to jump thru, and you have to use moonclips for the 9mms with this type of conversion because it will not have a true 9mm chamber for the case mouth to rest on for the proper headspace.
Option 2, Is expensive and I am not sure that S&W will have a cylinder any more. First you have to know whether you gun is a J frame or a Magnum J frame, I am assuming that it is a Magnum because you talk about shooting 357s thru it. so you have to get a corresponding cylinder. A J frame takes a cylinder for a 940 or 940-1 and a Maugnum J frame takesa cylinder from a 940-2, (the Scandium guns have a larger space in the frame due to the short barrel extension). Then you have to find a 'smith to fit the cylinder.
One last option is to find a S&W 940 and swap cylinders, again you have to be careful of the frame size (magnum or regular) I had a 940-1 and the cylinder swapped from it to both my 60-4 and 642, I hae since sold it and got a cylinder from S&W and had it installed in the 642 to make it a 942. This cylinder still fits in my 3" adjustable sighted 60-4.
A 3" adjustable sighted 60 with both cylinders would be a great TEOTWAWKI gun, would be able to shoot anything 357 caliber.

That brings up the accuracy issue of 9mms or .355s thru a .357 barrel. At Nosepicking distance being able to keep it on paper/COM @ 15 yds is pretty good, Mine @ 10 yds will keep a 5" group with the 9mm cylinder and a 5" group with the 38 cylinder, so accuracy is in the shooter. I do not practice with this gun enough but is is my every day carry gun. I shoot my S&W 13 and 35 a whole lot more.

Well at the moment the cylinder would be used in a 60-18 .357, and option 2 is what I have in mind. Good points.

And I'll let you guys know what comes of this...

 

[Ardent]

Well I managed to find a cylinder online, but it is simply listed as "640 9mm". Anyone know if this would fit in a steel framed 60-18 .357? This is the special 5" barrel .357 model 60.

 

[Shear_stress]

640 9mm

More than likely this cylinder is from a 940. Your M60-18 is on the more recent, lengthened "J-Magnum" frame. I don't believe the "J-Magnum" has the same size cylinder window as the earlier, non-magnum J-frame. It doesn't mean the cylinder won't fit, but it make take some smithing to turn the barrel down to match the cylinder length. I don't know how possible this would be with the 60-18's shrouded barrel. If you were to install a short barrel, wouldn't that run afoul of Canada's barrel-length requirement?

I still love the idea of a snubbie 9mm revolver. Ruger, Taurus, and S&W have all experimented with the idea, but there has just not been enough demand. In fact, Taurus just recently discontinued their 905 line (including the stillborn "Instant Backup".) Get 'em while you can.

 

[Ardent]

Impressive knowledge of Canada's gun laws I am however moving to the US in the future, and what I really want is a 9mm J-Frame but with an exposed hammer. Otherwise I'd just find a 940...

 

[Shear_stress]

Sounds like a good plan. Come on down.

 

[Majic]

Instead of cutting .357 mag brass why not buy some .38 Short Colt brass?

 

[Ardent]

Instead of cutting .357 mag brass why not buy some .38 Short Colt brass?

.38 Short Colt runs at archaic pressure levels, loading to 9mm spec could be a disaster, and the brass easily costs 3 times what .357 Win bulk does... Really wouldn't be any point. Just my thoughts...

 

[lbmii]

So what sort of velocitys do 9mms produce out of 2 inch revolvers?