Convicted Felon Tests Second Amendment

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IMO, "free is free" is a pipe dream.
The legal system, the prison system, the criminal statutes are just not set up to do that or anything close to it. A whole lot of changes would be necessary in how we do things to make that workable.

IMO, the lawsuit in the OP is a case where the judge will say it is a reasonable restriction that should be decided by the legislature.
 
No, that is not how it works.

Under current Federal Law (GCA of '68 IIRC) felons lose their rights but can appeal. Unfortunetly the US Congress deleted the funding for the ATF appeal section. So no appeals. None.

USSC ruled that was legal, the mechanism is set up, it is just too bad that noone can use it. All completely legal
You are telling half truths here. While it's true that the mechanism to apply for relief from disabilities has not been funded for many years, that is not the only avenue for relief. People with federal convictions can apply for a pardon. Those with state convictions, which are the overwhelming majority of felons can seek relief through various avenues through the state.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a8
 
Passing a bad check is a felony. Should he loose rights becuase of it?

Well, given the status of the law, if the person is dumb enough to risk his rights over a bad check felony, then he is dumb enough to lose his rights over a bad check felony.
 
So you agree with the federal courts that the man who was convicted of having a round of ammo in his vehicle in Mexico should therefore lose his rights to own firearms in the US.
Well you should have been paying better attention to the federal courts, the Supreme Court ruling in Small v. US related to a conviction in Japan established that felonies in foreign countries do not make the person prohibited.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-750

"Held: Section 922(g)(1)'s phrase "convicted in any court" encompasses only domestic, not foreign, convictions."

So that fellow convicted in Mexico, Mr. Brown IIRC, who had more than one round of ammo in his truck, is no longer prohibited from possessing firearms. He should have hired better lawyers, because his failed to raise that issue in the courts. Mr. Small obviously hired smarter lawyers for his case.
 
Under pressure from "animal rights activists", the legislature in my state just elevated harming a dog or cat from a misdemeanor to a felony. Is harming pets bad behavior? Of course. Is it felonious? I don't think so.

One theme consistently expressed above is that just about everybody in this country has at one time or another done something that could have led them to be convicted of a felony, and therefore have their 2A rights revoked. Those who don't believe this to be true haven't spent enough time reading the statues currently on the books.

I don't have a problem with the existence of a "bright line" where 2A rights disappear, but I think that that line should be established somewhere above the level of harming a cat or of passing a bad check.
 
????

I believe the ATF is the only one who can give relief.the ruling has been made by the ATF that a pardon does not apply as relief.
lot of people have been given felonies for minor mishaps.If I had the problem I might vote to deprive YOU of your rights because you are happy my rights have been taken away.
 
I believe the ATF is the only one who can give relief.the ruling has been made by the ATF that a pardon does not apply as relief.
Why do people post this stuff without ever bothering to try and find out the truth? Heck, I posted a link to the FAQs on the ATF website which gave info on "alternatives to relief."

Here it is again:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a8

You'll note that it specifically discusses the issue of pardons.

But hey, why learn the facts when it's so much fun to just post something that is not true.

:rolleyes:
 
The "average Joe" will never receive a pardon. For the average Joe, (IMHO) pardons are not a method of regaining gun rights that can ever be used in an honest discussion of regaining gun rights. If you resort to that argument, then you have conceded that there is no method of regaining gun rights.
 
Federal law now mirrors state law. If you get your rights back after serving time in the state system, you get them back Federally.
 


I've said this numerous times in other places, "If you can't trust a person with a ballot or a bullet, *** are they doing out of jail?"

For years those the committed crimes retained their rights to vote and carry firearms. Here in the West, many became lawmen.​
 
The "average Joe" will never receive a pardon. For the average Joe, (IMHO) pardons are not a method of regaining gun rights that can ever be used in an honest discussion of regaining gun rights. If you resort to that argument, then you have conceded that there is no method of regaining gun rights.
Did you bother to even read the link that has now been posted TWICE? I am not resorting to anything, or conceding anything, and I am being honest about this discussion, because your premise is FALSE!

A presidential pardon would only be necessary for those who have a FEDERAL conviction. Further a person could seek an appeal if there is a legal basis for overturning the conviction.

However, the vast majority of "felons" have STATE convictions, and can seek relief through the state. Most states (possibly all) have mechanisms for relief that do not require a pardon from the governor.

Thanks for being yet another poster who does not bother to actually learn the facts before ranting on this subject.

:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for being yet another poster who does not bother to actually learn the facts before ranting on this subject.

Oh please! If what I wrote was a rant, then you need to check your caffeine intake. Sure, you can "seek relief through the state". If you are convicted of one of the many "white collar, non violent" felonies in most states, you can petition the justice system to get it removed or expunged, but they just aren't going to do it. Many states will allow expungement IF it is a first time offense and part of a deal with the DA/Solicitor before the judge gives out his finding. Otherwise, every non-violent misdemeanor and felony in the U.S. would be expunged or removed in order to leave the ex-criminal without a record. Hoping the governor will pardon you so that you can have a gun is wishful thinking. By all means, cite all of the states that regularly pardons its non-violent felons so that they can have guns. If it is so common, you surely will have no problem at all!

Surely, there must be *someone* reading this forum that is such a pardoned felon, as it seems to be such an easy thing to do!


I've seen people struggle for half a year clearing up CLERICAL mistakes for misdemeanors to get off the NICS list. The only people getting pardoned for felonies are those with highly publicized miscarriages of justice. I repeat: a pardon , while possible, is not a reasonable pathway for most felons to regain their gun rights. I will stick my neck out further and say that expungment of a felony (or misdemeanor that resulted in a sentence of more than a year) is, similarly, wishful thinking. Petition all you want, (generally) it's not going to happen.
 
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:mad: I hope we get a better test case than this. E.g., someone convicted of some minor, nonviolent felony years ago, but who is now a model citizen.
 
I will provide a somewhat dissenting opinion for a LEO. Most officers feel that any felony should result in a lifetime ban on firearms. In some situations I agree.

My opinion is that some felonies should strip a person of their right to own guns (violent crimes against a person: Sexual Assault, Robbery, murder, etc). Many of the criminals who commit these crimes offend again, and the threat to society is much higher in these situations!

But, I do not necessarily think that every lessor felony should have a gun-based punishment. There are plenty of non-violent folks who have committed felonies where I don't believe they are a huge threat to society (check fraud, etc).

But, there is also a gray area that should be addressed. Things like burglaries, auto thefts, etc... these are crimes where violence could have occured, depending on the circumstances. And, in my state, these are felonies (as they should be).

I am somehwhat opposed to a blanket lifetime ban on any and all weapons for the conviction of a non-violent felony. But, many felons offend again, and we need to provide some protections to society against the local car-jacking 'banger.

Also, felons often are "on the streets" when they are still technically an inmate. That is their status, at least in my state, when on parole.

ON THIS CASE:

This turd should never be allowed to own a gun again. He has proven that he is violent, and a repeat offender. His case, in my opinion, hurts our position (as gun owners) to all of the decent citizens who are on the fence regarding this issue.

This guy is worthless, and does not deserve to exercise the rights that law-abiding citizens do!
 
I think this is a really bad time for this case to come up.

Don't want it muddying the water with the DC. vs. Heller case.

But that is the process that Heller is involved in. Heller is not the end all be all of 2nd Amendment jurisprudence, and once the decision comes down, Heller will be the impetus for far more decisions in the future. This is the way the common law works.
 


If the SC comes down for Heller, then there's Morton's Grove and Chicago to go after.

I just wish there was a way to force all may-issue states to become shall-issue states, but that's another problem.
 
Back in the medieval times when I took what was then called "social studies" in junior high school, the prevailing myth about prisons was that a convicted felon was sent to prison, served his (or her) time, and had then "paid his debt to society" and was a free man (or woman).

They left out the parts about losing basic civil rights for the rest of your natural life. IMHO, it should be the way they taught back in the 8th grade. Once a felon has served the sentence (and any probation period), he/she should have all rights -- ALL rights -- of citizenship restored, automatically. There should be no need to petition to have your rights restored.

Yeah, I know, that would mean that a bunch of not so nice people would be able to buy guns legally instead of steal them. My answer to that is, if we can't trust them to live within the laws of society, we should not be letting them out of prison. Period. Which means, if they're good enough to be let out, they're good enough to have their rights restored.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
 
Didn't read all the posts but wanted to throw in my .02

My father was convicted of a Felony many moons ago. Simply put it was tax evasion. He ran his own business and didn't keep up with the quarterly taxes. During the era of failing banks they wanted an example to be made and found someone to stick it to.

He got 9 years 3 counts, served 3 years and lost all his rights. Never hurt a soul except the good old IRS.

He has petitioned to get his rights reinstated. Petition denied is the reply. After a lawyer or two he was told basically you don't get them back unless you are pardoned so good luck with that.

He used to be great in real estate as well and cannot get his license ever again (other complications due to the conviction)

He now has a family of 3 a new wife and her son that he takes care of. Although his company that he was working for failed back in December and has not found a job yet do to the housing market he is stripped of his 2A rights.

Supposedly he still has a right to self defense. He can have knives, bats, clubs, swords and more at home but not a firearm or ammunition. What the hell is the difference? He can't go shooting with me either, breaks his heart.

Criminals will be criminals regardless. If it's illegal to own a gun do you really think they give a damn? Give them their rights back! Punish those who continue to do evil!

If you have served the time and are no longer on probation. I do not see why you cannot own one.
 
My opinion is that some felonies should strip a person of their right to own guns (violent crimes against a person: Sexual Assault, Robbery, murder, etc). Many of the criminals who commit these crimes offend again, and the threat to society is much higher in these situations!

But, I do not necessarily think that every lessor felony should have a gun-based punishment. There are plenty of non-violent folks who have committed felonies where I don't believe they are a huge threat to society (check fraud, etc).

Agreed.I really think a better way to handle this, would be something like, revoking a felon's 2A and voting rights should not be automatic, but available to a judge/jury as an OPTION as part of their sentence.That way, judges and juries can decide on a case by case basis if someone is a threat, or otherwise deserving of that punishment, and can decide for how LONG.That way, someone who gets say a first offense felony conviction for tax evasion, can be give whatever probation/parole/prison term the law and a judge/jury thinks is reasonable, but could decide to NOT revoke his 2A and/or voting rights, or could decide to revoke them for say only 1 year, 5 years, 6 months, etc.That way, a non-violent person isn't automatically stripped of their important rights,especially if it is decided they weren't even deserving of jail/prison time, only probation, which kinda proves no one thought they were any real danger, and deserved a second chance basically.

Also the sentence could be tailored to state that after "x" amount of time, the person AUTOMATICALLY gets their 2A and voting rights back, or after "x" amount of time they can make and APPEAL to get their rights back.Seems like a much better a more fair way to decide things, especially something as important as ones rights.Judges and juries are allowed (mandatory minimums notwithstanding, but I don't agree with those either) to generally tailor the length and severity of someones probation/prison time based on the individual, his remorse, his crime, his past record, etc, so why not do the same for their 2A and voting rights as well?

I cant see any harm in this.If a judge/jury feels someone is such a threat or repeat offender that they don't deserve to EVER get their rights back, that is always still an option, just like life in prison (or what effectively BECOMES life in the case of sentences of 30, 50, 80 etc years) is generally still an option.Anyone agree or disagree with allowing the whole thing to be individually tailored to the individual and his crime, as opposed to being automatic?
 
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Custom tailored would be better, but still likely end up the same way over time.
Guidlines for time lengths would become established, and banning them for most crimes would become a formality they didn't even notice anymore. Some voters would cry for mandatory banning lengths after a couple high profile cases of someone with thier rights restored was involved in a shooting (even though in reality they would have likely done the same illegaly anyways as many felons do now.)

The media will paint it as if someone would have been saved if they were still barred from that right, just like they paint it now that more people would be safe overall and alive if firearms were more heavily restricted for everyone.

The end result is just a small percentage of those charged would see any difference some years down the road. It would however be a good first step in the right direction.

The reality though is that the purpose of the 2nd is as a deterence to tyranny, such as in the government. If the government has the authority to remove that right by arresting and labeling anyone prohibited at will anyways, the 2nd is essently crossed out in the constitution. It is replaced with the right to "approved self defense against criminals" and "legal sporting purposes".


Lets take more recent times for example when the 2nd was used against tyranny. Take the civil rights movement. Individuals such as Malcolm-X were felons long before they were involved. That famous picture of him holding a rifle in the window?
Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif


That was in 1964 after he broke from the Nation of Islam and he had both them and government officials such as the FBI involved in COINTELPRO out to get him. That was almost 20 years after his first felony conviction. Wiki lists him going to prison in 1946 for felonies.
But being convicted of a felony was not a prohibiting factor until 1968, 22 years later, and 4 years after that picture.
United States Supreme Court Justice, Clarence Thomas, considers him one of his heros.

It is fair to say that many notable figures and groups in that struggle would have been easily ignored, assassinated, or crushed if they had not been capable of defending themselves, or been surrounded by people armed and willing to do the same.
So it is fair to say that same struggle would have failed today. Especialy in light of "terrorism" laws. All blacks, whites etc involved would have been labeled domestic terrorists and crushed under foot, disarmed and silenced, backed 100% by the law.

People like to highlight the unarmed individuals such as Martin Luther King Jr. but in reality they were hardly enough to change things. It was armed resistance and conflict both responsible for change as well as most of the anti gun legislation afterwards. Martin Luther became the highlighted individual given a holiday in 1986 , and mentioned in school books, long after everything was said and done, and armed individuals had taken up the fight and prevailed.
In fact the reason individuals such as Martin Luther King Jr. are highlighted is to encourage people to take that route to resolving conflict whether it is enough to accomplish things or not.

Further, operations such as COINTELPRO conducted by the FBI would today include having someone convicted of a felony so that they have no legal possession of firearms available. That means standing up to the government would be a sure way to find yourself convicted of a felony and a prohibited person.
COINTELPRO targeted many groups the government wished to be discredited, and was not limited to any race ethnicity or idealogy.
I wonder who similar programs target today?
 
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Last time I checked, there was something in the constitution about due process.
I don't know what this ex-con hopes to gain by affirming long standing and legal precedent.
 
The stripping of 2nd amendment rights for felons is pointless. Bad guys will get guns anyway. You are only hurting law abiding citizens...

If you have a non-violent or non gun related felony there is NO reason you should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

SupernovaNole
 
Zoogster,

Only a portion of the felons that leave prisons go to probation. Most have discharged thier sentence. Now I don't know about you but after working in a prison for the last 8 years I see how this all works.

I and I am sure a lot of others here would not want some thug that plea bargained a Murder charge down to say Manslaughter just so a D.A. can get a sure conviction and the thug gets a fraction of his time.:cuss:

Now I could see it for say some convicted of a felony DUI but then we have to start splitting hairs on what crimes are worse than others. Anyway I am happy knowing that a felon cannot legally obtain a firearm. I know they get them though. Just $.02 from a corrections officer.
 
Oh please! If what I wrote was a rant, then you need to check your caffeine intake. Sure, you can "seek relief through the state". If you are convicted of one of the many "white collar, non violent" felonies in most states, you can petition the justice system to get it removed or expunged, but they just aren't going to do it. Many states will allow expungement IF it is a first time offense and part of a deal with the DA/Solicitor before the judge gives out his finding. Otherwise, every non-violent misdemeanor and felony in the U.S. would be expunged or removed in order to leave the ex-criminal without a record. Hoping the governor will pardon you so that you can have a gun is wishful thinking. By all means, cite all of the states that regularly pardons its non-violent felons so that they can have guns. If it is so common, you surely will have no problem at all!
Well you're good at making false arguments. First I never said it was easy or common to get relief and have firearms rights restored through the state. Yet, to give your rants, and yes they are rants, some teeth you decided to mispresent my position by making it about how easy or common it is to have rights restored. As I said earlier there are other mechanisms for relief besides a presidential pardon. Further, many states have mechanisms to seek relief that do not require a pardon from the Governor, yet you decided again to make you rant primarily about the difficulty of obtaining pardons. It is not easy for felons to get their rights restored, but there are avenues available other than pardons, and I have come across many people who have had their rights restored, including one through a Governor's pardon. Sadly, most of those I've come across threw away their new restored firearms rights by committing additional crimes, and getting convicted of a new felony. I don't think they will be given another opportunity to legally possess firearms or ammunition.
 
I think we should all step back, and look at the stand we have taken. Do you BELIEVE in the second ammendment, or not? Do you think it is right that some government agency can eliminate that right for anyone? I will accept that one government agency can restrict that right. That is the penal system, after a conviction they have the responsibility of incarcerating the criminal. At that time he has NO rights. IF, and WHEN they release him back into society, his rights should be the same as every one else has.
I do not think it is good to make it a flexible, floating rule. lock him up,and release him with his rights restored, IF and WHEN you release him.
 
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