Anyone know if PMC ultramags are illegal?
Any info about this ammo would be appreciated
http://www.ammo-one.com/38SpPMCookieCutter.html
Any info about this ammo would be appreciated
http://www.ammo-one.com/38SpPMCookieCutter.html
cookie cutter bullets
- Thread starter chipp
- Start date
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Wow, seven dollars a shell. I've got a box in my safe that's never been opened that I picked up from a gun show a bunch of years ago. Legal, I don't see why not except in a state by state case ( such as New York) But if collectors are will to pay that much I don't think many of them will be shot.
Jim Watson
Member
They started out making the tubular bullets out of bronze, which is one of the Seven Banned Metals that define armor piercing handgun bullets. PMC soon shifted to copper, which is legal nationally, but I don't know about state or local law.
Jim Watson
Member
I doubt there were many if any of the bronze PMC tubulars to ever reach market. I wouldn't worry about it. When the feds search you for contraband there will be worse things under Hillary's laws.
bpisler
Member
This past summer there was a gunshop in
prescott valley Az that was selling boxes of
these for 13 bucks.That was for a box of 50
rounds,i think they had about 2-3 cases.
I should have bought a few boxes and offered
them at a discount price of only 5 dollars a
round.
prescott valley Az that was selling boxes of
these for 13 bucks.That was for a box of 50
rounds,i think they had about 2-3 cases.
I should have bought a few boxes and offered
them at a discount price of only 5 dollars a
round.
XDKingslayer
member
One round per customer...
SniperStraz
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 871
For those who load themselves
...why dont you just take a wadcutter and carefully drill a hole in it???
...why dont you just take a wadcutter and carefully drill a hole in it???
WeedWhacker
Member
All the wadcutters I've seen were made out of lead. These seem to be made out of copper or bronze. Since brass is fairly easy to cast, I don't see any reason why someone couldn't make their own bronze (90% copper, 10% zinc) slugs and then drill them... but are they even that effective? We all remember the "teflon-coated Black Talon Cop Killer" bullets, right?
-edit
I was wrong about the Black Talons being the evil teflon-coated bullets of policeman-seeking death. sargenv (next poster) tells me those were KTW rounds. Sorry!
-edit
I was wrong about the Black Talons being the evil teflon-coated bullets of policeman-seeking death. sargenv (next poster) tells me those were KTW rounds. Sorry!
Last edited:
sargenv
Member
Black Talons were not teflon coated Cop killer bullets.. KTW's were the Teflon Coated Steel core Supposed "cop killer" bullets that were made FOR Law Enforcement and were never intended to be sold to other than LE. In fact, no police officer was ever on the receiving end of one of these. Black Talon's were specially made Hollow point bullets that when mushroomed, would cause a supposed more positive impact on the target. They were coated with something black, but it was not teflon. They were not more effective due to their coating, they were more effective because of their design to cause greater trauma when the bullet expanded.
The reason for teflon coating the KTW bullets was not that it sliced through body armor, it was to protect the rifling of your handgun from the Hardened steel core of the bullet that did the actual penetrating of the light vests.
Think about it.. Teflon is not exactly the hardest substance on the planet.. You can scratch it off of a frying pan with a fork. How many pans have you seen trashed over the years?
Vince
The reason for teflon coating the KTW bullets was not that it sliced through body armor, it was to protect the rifling of your handgun from the Hardened steel core of the bullet that did the actual penetrating of the light vests.
Think about it.. Teflon is not exactly the hardest substance on the planet.. You can scratch it off of a frying pan with a fork. How many pans have you seen trashed over the years?
Vince
Jim Watson
Member
No reason in the world... except that it is illegal. After a false start with bronze, PMC made them out of pure copper to keep them from being classified by material, not performance, as "armor piercing."
The Teflon coating on KTW bullets was NOT to "protect the rifling." Gun barrel rifling is typically .004"-.005" deep and the coating was not nearly that thick. How much protection between tungsten or tool steel and barrel steel is a coating that you can "scratch off with a fork"?
First (tungsten) and second (steel) generation KTWs had their hard penetrators in copper half jackets to take the rifling. Similar to military rifle A.P. Third (bronze) generation KTW bullets were full size like the various copper pistol bullets and bronze rifle bullets now available, the alloy soft enough to be engraved by the rifling without damage but light enough to be driven at higher than standard velocity and hard enough to penetrate well.
The Teflon coating was thought to be an aid in penetration of the targets envisioned by the KTW partners. Which did not include Kevlar vests because they were not even being made at the time. They wanted penetration of car bodies and house doors and walls by cops shooting at barricaded criminals. How much the Teflon helped on sheet metal or wood, I don't know, but they thought it worth the expense.
NORTEXED
Member
If you will check back, the PMC's were actually an offshoot (no pun intended) of an earlier experimental round the Feds were playing with called "ARCANE" ammo, of the same design. There was even a reported instance of one of the Feds accidentally shooting another one through the vest during the Waco raid on the Branch Davidians.
See, sometimes it pays to be old
See, sometimes it pays to be old
NORTEXED
Member
Per Law:
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?) must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a handgun.
4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855 .223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.
5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.
6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.
ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:
All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.
ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:
5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.
WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?
If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is:
ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10 FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.
If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?) must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a handgun.
4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855 .223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.
5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.
6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.
ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:
All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.
ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:
5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.
WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?
If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is:
ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10 FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.
If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
Jim Watson
Member
The French Arcane bullets I have seen (pictured) were not tubular. They were solid copper or copper alloy with a sharp 70 degree conical point. This computed by the Froggies to combine penetration with shockwave development for a big temporary cavity.
The French GTV bullet is shown as a copper bullet with an actual concave ogive curve with a little ball on the nose to slide up the feed ramp of an autopistol or SMG. It has a hollow base which makes it very light and actually contains some of the large powder charge they use. The French say they are loaded to very high pressure, more than standard for even .357 Magnum, but it is ok because the peak pressure only lasts for a few microseconds. Riiight.
If it is ok to buy, sell, or possess pistol AP of the Seven Bad Metals, but not legal to make it, it is going to be a little hard to get, isn't it. And if you turn up with some in a doubtful situation, you will probably get to pay a lawyer to explain the fine points of the law.
The French GTV bullet is shown as a copper bullet with an actual concave ogive curve with a little ball on the nose to slide up the feed ramp of an autopistol or SMG. It has a hollow base which makes it very light and actually contains some of the large powder charge they use. The French say they are loaded to very high pressure, more than standard for even .357 Magnum, but it is ok because the peak pressure only lasts for a few microseconds. Riiight.
If it is ok to buy, sell, or possess pistol AP of the Seven Bad Metals, but not legal to make it, it is going to be a little hard to get, isn't it. And if you turn up with some in a doubtful situation, you will probably get to pay a lawyer to explain the fine points of the law.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Really? And just where in the US Constitution does said authority derive? We are still a Constitutional Republic, aren't we? So long as one doesn't sell it to anyone in another State, there is no such authority. Certainly not the Commerce Clause, because making something for your own use has no connection to interstate commerce. Of course the SCOTUS disagrees, but that's beside the point.
The Real Hawkeye
member
NORTEXED
Member
I really thought some of the ARCANE that the FBI/ATF were experimenting with in the 80's - early 90's was tubular like the PMC stuff, but I can't find refrence to it. A good source of info (with pics) of many types of light and AP ammo can be found here: http://www.conjay.com/Ammunition for Armor Testing Handgun-Revolver.htm As to your question of Constitutional authority, it all centers on Regulatory vs Law enforcement. Trust me, if they want to control something, the easiest way is not through legislative mandate, but by placing it under a Regulatory Agency and then simply "Regulating" it out of existence.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Nortext, the bullets in my picture above are tubes, with plastic inserts to catch the propulsion of the expanding gasses. Once it leaves the barrel, the plastic is supposed to fall away. The only metal in the bullet is a sharp edged copper tube. No lead.
Firehand
Member
Just to add in a point of argument, bronze is copper and tin: copper and zinc gives you brass.
The Real Hawkeye
member
You have a right to your opinion on that issue. Others have a right to disagree.
Kidding! I'm kidding!Jim Watson
Member
Hawkeye, do your funny bullets have cartridge headstamps? They somewhat resemble the Geco/RWS BAT bullet of a bygone day, now available again. There was also a US made bullet of similar design, in more different calibers.
A metallurgist will term any heavily alloyed copper "bronze" and considers brass to be a special case.
A metallurgist will term any heavily alloyed copper "bronze" and considers brass to be a special case.
Revolver Ocelot
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
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- 1,470
if you drilled a hole in it all the gass would escape through the bullet when you fired it, these cartridges have a cup behind them that falls away after you fire it.
Jim Watson
Member
Not if the hole is small enough as in:
http://www.ruagammotecusa.com/gecohandgun.cfm
Gas pressure blows the nose cap - provided for reliable feeding in un-throated European service pistols and submachineguns - out ahead of the bullet.
True, the big-hole tubular PMC had to have a bottom wad hard enough to hold pressure to get it launched.
The first tubular bullet was the Krnka-Hebler of about 1900. It was torpedo shaped with a center hole to bleed air into the base vacuum. It set in a deep gas check sabot to align and seal it. Range was said to be VERY long but accuracy poor due to little bearing surface. Might have been ok for dedicated heavy machine gun ammo in WW I doctrine.
http://www.ruagammotecusa.com/gecohandgun.cfm
Gas pressure blows the nose cap - provided for reliable feeding in un-throated European service pistols and submachineguns - out ahead of the bullet.
True, the big-hole tubular PMC had to have a bottom wad hard enough to hold pressure to get it launched.
The first tubular bullet was the Krnka-Hebler of about 1900. It was torpedo shaped with a center hole to bleed air into the base vacuum. It set in a deep gas check sabot to align and seal it. Range was said to be VERY long but accuracy poor due to little bearing surface. Might have been ok for dedicated heavy machine gun ammo in WW I doctrine.
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