Cop killings back in spotlight; Victims of their own guns . . . (Tacoma, WA)

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Mark Tyson

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Cop killings back in spotlight; Victims of their own guns: Training, holsters don't prevent police deaths

Copyright 2003 The News Tribune
The News Tribune (Tacoma, Washington) August 5, 2003, Tuesday

In the past 13 months, three Washington law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty - all shot with their own handguns.

That's close to the three to four officers that are killed each year across the country by their own department-issued handguns. Of the 142 law enforcement officers killed in the United States and Puerto Rico in 2001, three were fatally shot with their guns, according to the latest FBI statistics available.

The deaths here refocus on the need for proper equipment and continual training on how to keep a combative suspect away from an officer's gun, officials said Monday.


"There is nothing good that comes from when a suspect goes for your gun," said Pierce County sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer. "You have a fight for your life."

The state's latest fatal shooting was Saturday, when Federal Way police officer Patrick Maher, 46, was shot and killed by his own gun after scuffling with a fleeing man.

King County sheriff's deputy Richard Herzog, 46, was killed June 22, 2002, while he wrestled with a naked man who had been pounding on cars along a busy road in Newcastle.

During the struggle, Herzog's gun fell to the ground. Police say the man reached the weapon first and shot Herzog several times.

Chelan County sheriff's deputy Saul Gallegos, 35, was killed June 26 of this year when he lost control of his gun while he struggled with a man he'd stopped for a traffic violation.

Exactly how Gallegos and Maher lost their weapons remains under investigation.

To keep others from getting their guns, law enforcement officers depend in part on specialized holsters.

Authorities and manufacturers are reluctant to describe the safety features on holsters because they don't want to make it easy for someone to take a gun from an officer.

Holsters are described as being Level 1, 2 or 3, depending of the number of safety features. Maher's gun, for example, was strapped into a Level 2 holster, meaning it had two levels of security to keep the gun in place.

Most officers in Washington wear either a Level 2 or Level 3 holster, said Lacey police Sgt. Bob Cecil, the range master at the Basic Law Enforcement Academy.

For officers, the more secure the holster, the more difficult the gun can be to draw.

"Seconds count," Cecil said. "(Departments balance) what provides the officer the highest level of security with what allows the officer to grab the gun and defend themselves."

Federal Way and Des Moines police officers as well as King County sheriff's deputies can choose between Level 2 and Level 3 holsters. Tacoma police requires their officers to use Level 3 holsters, assistant police chief Bill Meeks said.

"It requires that you do more training with it," Meeks said of the holster Tacoma police use. "But it is a more safe system."

The state Department of Labor and Industries fined the King County Sheriff's Office last year because it didn't make sure Herzog was wearing the right type of holster when he was shot. The holster was not designed for the gun Herzog carried. The sheriff's office is appealing the $ 3,000 fine.

A Labor and Industries investigator has been assigned to the Maher shooting to determine whether Federal Way police adequately protected Maher the day of the shooting, spokeswoman Elaine Fischer said.

The situations Herzog, Gallegos and Maher found themselves in - fighting with a suspect while trying to protect their weapons - can be the riskiest and most fatal, officials said.

Law enforcement officers receive extensive training on how to use and protect their guns.

As a recruit in the Basic Law Enforcement Academy, an officer receives more than 70 hours of defensive tactics training, including six hours on protecting his or her weapon, said Bob Bragg, who teaches defensive tactics.

Once on the streets, officers receive additional firearms and defensive tactics training from their departments.

"We train officers to know that if they are in a fight for their gun, it's a lethal situation," Bragg said. "You have to go on the premise that if they do get it, they will use it on you."
 
"We train officers to know that if they are in a fight for their gun, it's a lethal situation," Bragg said. "You have to go on the premise that if they do get it, they will use it on you."
And in the same breath they tell the officer that using their firearm will land them in a world of trouble.

Not a single thug within a million miles of WA St. doesn't know that either. Not one.

And so, virtually every police stop becomes a brawl. In the last 3 months, 5 different brawls involving drunken/drug-addled loser scum have been chronicled in our local newspaper alone! And I live on an island the size of Manhattan that has about 10,000 people on it.

Keep telling the cops that they are supposed to fist fight a while, then perhaps wrestle a little, with maybe a moment or two of spicy spray, and perhaps only then should they go for a real weapon, and they will CONTINUE to be killed by PUNKS!!!!

:fire:
 
You know, if I were a cop, I would take off my badge and gun, and hand it over to the idiots that want their thugs mollycoddled. Let them, and the Eloi that placed them in authority deal with criminals.
 
As a recruit in the Basic Law Enforcement Academy, an officer receives more than 70 hours of defensive tactics training, including six hours on protecting his or her weapon, said Bob Bragg, who teaches defensive tactics.
Six hours of weapons retention is a good start, but it is not enough.

Better still would be two, six-hour segments, as widely separated by time as possible during the academy, so that the lessons from the first class have time to sink in before taking the refresher.

Best of all would be a six-hour class repeated every year or two.

And yeah, I know all those things cost money, and that departments don't like to spend money. But these skills are lifesavers, and even more likely to be needed than even the ability to shoot straight.

If you're a LEO and your department isn't mandating such training, get it anyway. The life you save could be your own.

pax
 
The sad part is many departments do not conduct any weaponless defense or firearms training above and beyond the training conducted at the police academy. It is a perishible skill, like shooting, but it is largely ignored in favor of gadgets like OC spray, tasers, and the like.

Pilgrim
 
Manual safteys.

This is one of the reasons i carry a 1911 style weapon with a MANUAL saftey.

It might just afford a few extra seconds in a struggle for my weapon if i were to be disarmed.

12-34hom.
 
Something else...

There are bad guys who pratice disarming Police Officers. Prison cameras have caught video footage of groups practicing. How dedicated are some of these guys? They aquire the same type of security holsters as the cops....and practice defeating them in the blink of an eye. There are some pretty scary people out there (and in there [prisons]).

JMHO
 
This is one of the reasons i carry a 1911 style weapon with a MANUAL saftey.
Funny thing-- Tacoma led the nation recently as being the first larger department to adopt Kimber 1911s-- MY duty pistol-- for issue and carry. I don't know how many of them are on the streets or how many of the guns used in the cop-killings were 1911s, but probably at least one or two of them were.

I believe one of the major problems with cops getting disarmed has been that many draw before they need to and don't practice good weapons-retention techniques while they've got their firearm drawn. Another problem that I suspect is occuring is that the manual safety is getting knocked off-- and left off-- when suspects are getting covered.

Now, something I want but can't find lately, is a quality, quick Level II high ride retention holster. My old Level I is getting a bit tired, and lately I've been thinking about retention more. But I'm firmly in the High Ride camp, as it gives a whole extra level of retention (your strong side elbow), plus the ability to easily draw while sitting, AND it mimics the off-duty concealable holster I carry.
 
Matt G when you find a holster you like (mid/low ride) call the maker. Often they offer a high ride version but it's not stocked as they don't sell a lot. Safariland makes a high ride of their Level III 070 but most people don't know that.
 
Something's not right here.

"In the past 13 months, three Washington law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty - all shot with their own handguns.

That's close to the three to four officers that are killed each year across the country by their own department-issued handguns. Of the 142 law enforcement officers killed in the United States and Puerto Rico in 2001, three were fatally shot with their guns, according to the latest FBI statistics available."

Only three officers have been killed by their own guns nationwide? That doesn't sound right, too low. Does anyone have the real stats?

Anyway, my respects go out to Patrick Maher's family. He threw himself in the way of the gun to protect someone else. A good man was lost that day.

Jeff
 
Statistically, 13% of all cops shot are shot with their own weapons. (source: NIJ, DOJ)

Last year, as mentioned, 146 cops were killed in the line of duty. (up from the years prior, discounting the cops that died on 09/11/01) Of those, roughly half were intentional homicides, and of those, only about 3/4 were gunshots. Call it 60 or 70 (I don't have the most recent stats in front of me, but I've seen them, and they pretty well have followed a trend). 13% of 60 is 7.8. Add the three Tocoma cops with the 4 others nationwide, and you're right at the standard national average for shot cops who were shot with their own weapons.
 
The state Department of Labor and Industries fined the King County Sheriff's Office last year because it didn't make sure Herzog was wearing the right type of holster when he was shot. The holster was not designed for the gun Herzog carried. The sheriff's office is appealing the $ 3,000 fine.

Um, there were more problems going on here than just bad/not enough training. What was he doing carrying a gun in the WRONG holster?

Didn't it say that it dropped on the ground during the struggle?

IMHO, too many cops are not "gun guys". Not that you have to be a nut, with a 10,000+ post count on THR, but too many of them view it as just a tool...and one they don't use very often. Maybe that's true, but come-on...I expect to NEVER need mine, and I still make sure I'm as proficient as possible...and I'm not in a line of work that makes me go look for Goblins.

My .02
 
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