Cop shooter feared for his life, court told

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http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/0603/06ramirez.html

Cop shooter feared for his life, court told

By DAVID SIMPSON
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution



On the day he was arrested, Bautista Ramirez told police detectives he shot a Doraville police officer because he was afraid that "if I don't kill him, he's going to kill me."

Jurors in Ramirez's death penalty trial saw the videotaped interview, conducted in Spanish, and heard a simultaneous English translation for more than 90 minutes Thursday.

Doraville police investigator Hugo Arango was shot to death May 13, 2000, after approaching Ramirez, then 19, and his cousin, 16, outside the Eclipse nightclub.

The defense contends Ramirez acted in self-defense after Arango hit him in the head with a flashlight. Prosecutors say Ramirez killed Arango to avoid arrest for having a concealed weapon.

In his account to the detectives after his arrest May 18, 2000, Ramirez said Arango threatened his cousin, Alvaro Ramirez, for moving his hands after being frisked. "He shouted he was going to bust his head open," Bautista Ramirez said.

Moments later, the elder Ramirez said, Arango began frisking him and discovered the gun he had tucked into his waistband. Ramirez, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, had no permit for the gun.

Ramirez said he turned away when the officer reached for the gun, "and he hit me on the head. And I thought, 'Well, he's going to kill me.' "

He said Arango shoved him to the ground and fell on top of him from behind. Ramirez said he could see the "security guard" -- actually club manager David Contreras -- lunging toward him.

"I said, 'Well, they're going to kill me. And I shot him [Contreras] . . . but I couldn't see very well," Ramirez said, adding later he was "half-dizzy" because of the blow to his head.

The struggle continued on the ground, he said, and he reached around his body to fire two shots under his armpit toward Arango. Ramirez said he then reached over his shoulder and "saw his face" and fired again.

A medical examiner has testified Arango was killed almost instantly by the final shot to the head.

Ramirez's account of being struck with the flashlight was supported in earlier videotaped testimony by Alvaro Ramirez. Several witnesses have said Ramirez was bleeding from his head as he fled.

Contreras has testified he never saw Arango with the flashlight and that Arango and Ramirez were grappling face to face when Ramirez opened fire. But he appeared to change that account in his second stint on the witness stand by saying the men fell to the ground, apparently before shots were fired.

Most of Bautista Ramirez's videotaped interview was conducted by John King, then a police captain who now is Doraville police chief. In cross-examination Thursday, defense lawyer Thomas West pointed out Ramirez said he was roughed up by the arresting officers and had not slept for more than a day.
 
does anybody know what happens to your sense of fear when someone(not just a cop) beats you on the head with a flashlight?
 
I'm glad to see the young man step up to the plate and admit to murder.

He should be taken outside the court, and hanged from the nearest tree. Hang his cousin right next to him as an accesory to murder.

Then round up the rest of the alien :cuss:ers and throw them the hell out of my COUNTRY!!!!!!


Illegal alien POS :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :fire: :fire: :fire:
 
does anybody know what happens to your sense of fear when someone(not just a cop) beats you on the head with a flashlight?
It probably skyrockets. However, if you are resisting arrest and are armed, this kinda negates that argument. :scrutiny:

Mike
 
Would your attitude change at all if the shooter were a 75-year-old WWII vet, jmbg? Where he came from, and whether or not he is 'legal' is of no relevance to the incident in question. I don't think there's enough info here to make a decision one way or another, but the previous actions of either party are immaterial in determining who was right and who was wrong.
 
Would your attitude change at all if the shooter were a 75-year-old WWII vet, jmbg?
Talk about irrelevant.
Where he came from, and whether or not he is 'legal' is of no relevance to the incident in question.
It has everything to do with it. His very presence in this country is an illegal act. That alone makes him subject to arrest 24/7/365.
I don't think there's enough info here to make a decision one way or another,
He was in the processs of being arrested by a police officer. In his attempt to resist that arrest, he murdered a police officer. Open and shut case. Hang the convict, and let's move on. Next case.
but the previous actions of either party are immaterial in determining who was right and who was wrong.
See above
 
I think I'll second Ian.

I believe it's been relatively common practice in the past for police to rough up, shake down, and even kill illegals because the perception is that they can get away with it because the victims won't talk to investigators due to immigration status and their belief that even if they did, they don't know which officers are covering for the bad ones.
 
Had the defendant reached into his pocket for a cell-phone and the officer shot him, the officer would use the tried and true "I thought he was reaching for a gun" defense and walk free.

I'd like to see the Mexican population back in Mexico too, but I'm fed up with police officers shooting people and getting away with it with nothing more than a few days of paid leave. I've watched cops do just what this one is accused of and never suffer a single repercussion. When was the last time you heard of a police officer going to prison for killing an unarmed citizen? Is that because police personnel are superior to all other people?

Until citizens-- regardless of what country they are legal citizens of-- have the same rights as the police we will live in a police state.
 
Murder eh? Sounds to me like the guy acted too rashly but given the situation I think he could have been justified. Some cops, not many but some, like to hit people. A lot. Whether this man was an illegal or not he feared the cop would beat him to death, the cop had proven he was capable of violence and he reacted. But that is fine with you, eh jmbg, 'long as it happens to illegals?

The idea that simply because you can be arrested negates your right to defense when someone attacks you is absurd. He could have been arrested anytime and that's what the cop was doing. The cop also happened to threatened the man, both with his little flashlight stunt and by saying he was "going to bust his head open."

He is an illegal, so what? That has no weight on the charge of murder, the question is did he act out of genuine fear for his life? Whether you are here legally or illegally the RIGHT to self defense can't be taken away from you.

It is likely that he might have acted to save his own hide from arrest. But you appear to assume that is the case simply because he is an illegal. Real fair eh?
 
Lesse, we have:

1) attempted flight

2) being an illegal

3) carrying a gun

Uhhh...guess what? NONE of those justify lethal force.

A metal D-cell flashlight upside the head is lethal force.

Self defense against a cop that is trying to kill you without legal justification is proper.

If that's what happened, I hope he gets off (and gets deported of course, or spends some jail time for the gun carry first at worst).
 
Somebody check me on this, but the chain of events seesm to go like this:
  • 1)Cop is frisking suspects.

    2)During the frisk, Suspect #2 keeps moving around.

    3)Suspect #1 claims cop threatened Suspect #2 because of the movement.

    4)Cop finds gun in waistband of Suspect #1.

    5)Cop tries to remove gun.

    6)Suspect #1 decides he wants to wander off - after cop finds gun.

    7)Suspect #1 gets smacked with a Streamlight - either before or after cop and Suspect #1 wind up grappling on the ground.

Folks, if I'm conducting a lawful arrest and I find a gun during the frisk, I'm going to relieve my arrestee of his gun.

If, when I am removing said gun, the arrestee decides he needs to make a sudden move, I'm here to tell you he's going to be lucky if all he gets is a Mag-Light in the teeth.

If I'm in close to a suspect and reaching for his gun, and he decides to jerk away while I'm taking his gun, we're liable to find out just exactly how fast an HK can get to slide-lock.

LawDog
 
Lawdog, I'm with you...don't they call that a "furtive" motion? I mean, he moved after the arresting officer found the gun??

All bets are off, whether he's from south of the border or a Medal of Honor winner.
 
His very presence in this country is an illegal act. That alone makes him subject to arrest 24/7/365.
Sure, he is subject to arrest for illegal immigration 24/7/365. But he is not subject to arrest for murder because of that.

quote:
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Would your attitude change at all if the shooter were a 75-year-old WWII vet, jmbg?
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Talk about irrelevant.
On the contrary, it's very relevant. If your opinion of the case WOULD change if the arrestee were of a different social group, then your perception of the event is clearly biased, and you have no business judging the arrestee.

I'm quite willing to believe that this guy shot a cop to avoid arrest, if that is proven to have been the case. But his guilt depends on what he did, not who he is.
 
Sure, he is subject to arrest for illegal immigration 24/7/365. But he is not subject to arrest for murder because of that.
He is subject to arrest and conviction of murder because both he and the witnesses agree that he shot a cop that was trying to arrest him. He is guilty because after he was stopped and frisked (due to a fight that he was alledged to have been party to) he then decided to resist arrest because the cop had found a gun during the frisking process. Then he was hit in the head by the cop for continuing to resist and move away after the gun had been discovered.

He killed in order to save himself from jail. If it were otherwise, he would have gone limp, and done none of the things that even a very young mentally challenged child knows will cause the police to resort to violence in order to control the situation/prevent escape/etc.

I say give him his wish, skip jail, and string him, and his cousin - the accessory to murder - up

So, if he was a 75 year old WWII vet - from the U.S. or :cuss:ing Mexico, he would still be guilty of the commission of murder in the second degree with aggravating circumstances because he committed the offense while trying to resist arrest.

The idea that simply because you can be arrested negates your right to defense when someone attacks you is absurd. He could have been arrested anytime and that's what the cop was doing. The cop also happened to threatened the man, both with his little flashlight stunt and by saying he was "going to bust his head open."
By your logic, a bank robber would be justified in killing anyone in the bank that tried to use force to stop him, if he just has the good sense to say "Duh-huh...Sorry your honor. I was in fear for my life...huh-huh...I had to kill 'em all sir."

The POS got the flashlight to the head for thrashing around while the cop was trying to get his gun away from him, and arrest him. He wasn't struck at random, and he wasn't struck without reason. And by your own (and his own admission) he was warned to stop resisting arrest.
"going to bust his head open."
HE decided to resist arrest, and escalated that resistance to the point of MURDER!!!!!!
It is likely that he might have acted to save his own hide from arrest. But you appear to assume that is the case simply because he is an illegal. Real fair eh?
No. I find him guilty because he has no right to resist arrest. That he chose to resist arrest is what got him hit in the head.

That he is an illegal rat-:cuss: POS only adds to the outrage of his crime.
But that is fine with you, eh jmbg, 'long as it happens to illegals?
What will be fine with me is if this illegal gets the eternal dirt nap that he so richly deserves.
 
Hitting someone in the head with a maglite is an application of lethal force. Is lethal force justified in Georgia to prevent resisting arrest by flight? If it is, then the defendant had no right to self defense. If it is not, then the defendant retained the right to defend himself from unlawful excessive force.
 
Hitting someone in the head with a maglite is an application of lethal force.

Funny, if I apply "lethal force" the recipent isn't gonna be able to shoot me afterward. Must have been somewhat "less than lethal" in application. Really reaching for any reason (no matter how remotely plausible) to make this a bad shoot, are we?

Seems to me (and almost any court except in a few of the People's Republics that used to be states) that once a cop finds a gun on a criminal suspect and the criminal attempts to move away, the officer has the right to use any force needed to protect himself and any bystanders.
 
jmbg29

He should be taken outside the court, and hanged from the nearest tree. Hang his cousin right next to him as an accesory to murder.

It's a damn shame that the flashlight hit wasn't fatal.

Open and shut case. Hang the convict, and let's move on. Next case.

I say give him his wish, skip jail, and string him, and his cousin - the accessory to murder - up

What will be fine with me is if this illegal gets the eternal dirt nap that he so richly deserves.

You're just a law and order sorta guy, now, aren't you.

I recall you made similar "take em out and hang em" exhortations in our debate on John Walker Lindh on TFL at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=101133

You wanted to summarily hang him as well.
 
His immigration status is irrelevant.

The fact that he was armed and resisting arrest, however, is completely relevant. If he was reaching for the gun, all bets are off. Smack him in the melon with the flashlight, empty your sidearm into him, whichever you have a chance to do, but you better do it NOW because the game is on.

Obviously, we don't have access to all the info in this case (my constant lament), but the fact that we have arrived at the sentencing stage is what we in LE refer to as "a clue."

Mike
 
You wanted to summarily hang him as well.
If by summarily you mean taking a person that was caught fair and square doing what they were/are guilty of, and putting them to death, then yes.

In both cases, good men died because they failed to kill the rats first, and said rats are still stealing my oxygen.
 
No excuse for this. This guy shot a cop who was doing his job. Hitting a guy with a flashlight is not reason enough to committ MURDER. Especially when he is being arrested. It would be a travesty if this ????stain gets off.

I have enough common sense to know that when i am being arrested, especially while carrying, to not act like that...


~Brian
 
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