copper, bonded or non bonded bullets?

[Axis II]

I'm looking at several bullets for 44mag handi rifle and also using in a muzzleloader and not sure what to get for deer hunting. I see XTP mag bullets which say they are bonded, barnes all copper bullets and non bonded bullets. Im also interested in .451/45 bullets for the muzzleloader.

which would be a good fit for deer hunting? From what ive gathered the bonded wont fragment when it his bone, the copper says it retains 100% energy and the normal ones not really info. To me the copper would make sense to fragment, the bonded seems to me like it wouldn't mushroom enough and not really do much damage but maybe im wrong?

 

[Bbear]

I've used the XTP's for about 10 years now in both a handgun (.357 Mag) and muzzleloader (.45 cal bullets in a sabot) with great results. Good penetration, whether through bone or just thumping them in the chest, with complete pass through. Used one on a cow elk in the neck at 75 yards and had some shards in the meat but complete pass-through of the neck bones. Exit wounds on chest shots run about .75-1" diameter holes leaving good blood trails.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I honestly think that for whitetails, it doesn't matter.
I have only killed one deer with a Hornady XTP. It was just a standard load of 90 grains of loose powder. It didn't quite pass through. There was a knot on the off side and I just took my knife and split the skin a little and pulled out the bullet. Deer dropped where it stood.

The concern of a bonded bullet not expanding at ML velocities is a valid one. I'd make sure before trying it.

 

[CraigC]

XTP's are absolutely not bonded. Actually core/jacket separation is rather common. A "bonded" bullet has its jacket bonded to the core, which means it does not separate and nothing more. How much it expands and what it does when it hits bone is more a matter of how it's constructed. How thick the jacket is and how hard the core is. I typically prefer cast bullets for most purposes but for a jacketed bullet, the Speer Gold Dot (or Deep Curl) is a better choice than the XTP.

 

[Axis II]

XTP's are absolutely not bonded. Actually core/jacket separation is rather common. A "bonded" bullet has its jacket bonded to the core, which means it does not separate and nothing more. How much it expands and what it does when it hits bone is more a matter of how it's constructed. How thick the jacket is and how hard the core is. I typically prefer cast bullets for most purposes but for a jacketed bullet, the Speer Gold Dot (or Deep Curl) is a better choice than the XTP.

even xtp mags? Sorry, just trying to learn here.

I took this quote from Hornady as they were bonded.

"Hornady XTP bullets were designed for hunting, self-defense, and law enforcement. One of the great things about the XTP bullet is reliable performance, it features controlled expansion where six serrations divide the bullet into six symmetrical sections. These sections weaken the jacket to allow controlled expansion at low velocities and ensures fragmentation does not occur at high velocities. The XTP bullet is really known for its stopping power. They were designed from the beginning to expand reliably at a variety of handgun velocities and deliver deep, terminal penetration with every shot. Most handgun bullets are designed to perform at a single factory-specified velocity where the XTP bullet is designed to offer controlled expansion over a range of velocities.

Each XTP Bullet has a swaged core and drawn copper jacket to ensure uniform expansion and in-flight stability. Adding a cannelure to this bullet keeps the core and the jacket locked together while also allowing the cartridge case to tightly crimp, adding security at high velocities. This is not loaded ammunition"

 

[CraigC]

That's marketing. A cannelure does not constitute a "bonded" bullet. The Mag version just has a thicker jacket. Here's a separated XTP.

 

[Captcurt]

I've used the XTP's for about 10 years now in both a handgun (.357 Mag) and muzzleloader (.45 cal bullets in a sabot) with great results. Good penetration, whether through bone or just thumping them in the chest, with complete pass through. Used one on a cow elk in the neck at 75 yards and had some shards in the meat but complete pass-through of the neck bones. Exit wounds on chest shots run about .75-1" diameter holes leaving good blood trails.

Same here. Never recovered a 300gr XTP from a whitetail shot with black powder or 180gr out of my 357 GP.

 

[buck460XVR]

Seems to be a lot of confusion here as to what a bonded bullet is. XTPs are not bonded, but a jacketed, typical "cup and core". Speer's Gold Dots/Deep Curls are not a true jacketed bullet, but a lead core with a copper jacket electronically bonded to it. Ohihunter2014 you should read this link. It will help you understand bullets much bette than anything you are getting here.........https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=86

 

[Walkalong]

Pretty much any name brand JHP or JSP will work on deer if you hit them well.

So will cast bullets with a big meplat.

 

[Axis II]

Thanks guys. I'm new to the rifle thing for hunting. Up until a few years ago it was shotgun slungs and muzzleloaders. Just making sure everything is right cause I owe it to the animal.

 

[DM~]

Ohihunter2014 you should read this link. It will help you understand bullets much bette than anything you are getting here.........https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=86

The problem "I" see when I read the info at that link is, he used specific instances where a few bullets worked and tried to make that sound like an end all do all!

In another life time, I spent my time designing and mfg'ing bullets, mostly "bonded core" hunting bullets, so from MY experience it wasn't hard to pick apart his findings...

YES a cup/core bullet works just fine in many instances, but use one and hit major bone and see what happens! Where a "bonded core" bullet easily out performs a cup/core bullet in that kind of situation.

I could easily write an article to counter HIS article and make the bonded bullet look better!

The truth is, when you want the deepest penetration, especially when or after hitting bone, you need the core to NOT separate from the jacket, pretty much the only way THAT will happen is, with bonding the core to a proper constructed jacket.

IF you want to know if a bullet is truly "bonded" to the jacket, cut it in half length wise and see it the core will separate when you twist it with pliers. A bonded core will NOT separate!

DM

 

[Walkalong]

No doubt a bonded bullet is better at holding together in a tough target, I think everyone agrees with that. Question is, are they needed for deer, and that is debatable. Millions of deer have been killed with regular cup and core bullets, as well as cast. Deer are soft and not very thick, at least around here.

 

[DM~]

No doubt a bonded bullet is better at holding together in a tough target, I think everyone agrees with that. Question is, are they needed for deer, and that is debatable.

NO they aren't NEEDED for deer, but the problem is, too many folks these days are trying to use too light of weight of bullet for the game they are shooting. Bonding in the core makes up for some of that "lighter" weight.

Use a cup/core bullet of the proper weight/style for what you are shooting and that's all you need for deer...

DM

 

[buck460XVR]

No doubt a bonded bullet is better at holding together in a tough target, I think everyone agrees with that. Question is, are they needed for deer, and that is debatable. Millions of deer have been killed with regular cup and core bullets, as well as cast. Deer are soft and not very thick, at least around here.

Basically what the article I linked to stated, and something I totally agree with. Members of the deer family, black bear and Humans are much different than Elephants, Grizzlies and Water Buffalo. The venerable 30/30 has much less velocity than most .300 Mags. Using any bullet at a velocity and on an animal, it is not intended for, will give poor terminal performance. Using the most expensive bullet available is not going to make a difference between a clean kill and a lost animal if one makes a poor hit, or used on animals and/or at velocities it is not designed for. I've killed a lot of deer in my life, both with firearms and with bow, and butchered most of them myself. Very few bones in a whitetail that would separate a quality cup and core bullet, used at the velocity intended, other than the pelvis. If you need a bullet to penetrate the pelvis without separation, you need to rethink your shooting proficiency and shot selection.

Most folks have a idea of what works well for them and they continue to use it because of that. Confidence in your equipment, makes for a confident hunter. It does not make them infallible. It also does not make something else not as good or better. Never fails, every hunting season, I hear a story from a hunter that shot and did not retrieve a deer, that claims they "double lunged it" and the bullet or broadhead failed. They now consider that terminal projectile "junk". could never figure out, when they did not retrieve the animal, they know for sure the "double lunged it" and the projectile failed.....and not their shot. Most hunting type bullets intended for deer size game have been designed for both penetration and expansion. Both are important for quick and clean kills. IMHO, any hunting type bullet, made by a reputable manufacturer, used as intended, will perform just fine on deer size game, regardless of cost and construction. Difference in how well they perform terminally, will never be recognized by the average hunter, nor will it make any measurable difference in the distance traveled after the shot. Still, folks should use what they have confidence in and are proficient with. That WILL make a difference. I hunt deer with handguns or handgun caliber carbines anymore. I use both Nosler/Hornady/Speer cup and core type bullets and Speer Deep Curl bonded type bullets. I have seen little or no difference in performance on deer, even when shoulder bone is hit. This is very obvious when butchering the animal taken.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

The 240 XTP is a very accurate bullet in every 44 mag and 50 cal ML (in a sabot) I've shot it in. It has also performed very well on deer at a wide range of impact velocities (1100-1800 fps). Yes, the core will occasionally separate from the jacket, but the mass of the remaining core is heavy enough to penetrate and do the job.

Highly recommended.

Of course, over the years I've tried a number of other bullets seeking better performance: bonded, solid copper, higher BC, etc. etc. Those have had genuine issues: hard to find an accurate load, failures to expand, etc. At some point I decided to stop wasting my money chasing promises and just stick with what works: and the 240 XTP just works.

 

[CraigC]

Much of the problem on this issue is that most hunters think if the deer died within a reasonable distance, the bullet did its job. A failed bullet can easily kill a deer deader than fried chicken but it can also cause disaster the next time it happens. Personally, I don't fool with bullets that don't stay together. Now, I'm not going to say you need to use Barnes or Swift bullets on deer at a dollar a shot, because it's true that they don't take much killing but if my choice is between an XTP and a comparably priced bonded bullet like the Gold Dot, I'll take the bonded bullet. If not, I'll use a cast bullet. It just ain't worth the angst to use a bullet that may come apart. It's true that deer don't take a lot to kill but we saw a 400gr .475 XTP fail on a 130lb deer just last month. I've had tender Hornady bullets blow up on a 100lb doe's shoulder blade. When you're hunting with a big bore revolver, any expansion you get is gravy. So I prefer a tougher bullet that will penetrate and maintain its integrity.

 

[Kevinq6]

I'm looking at several bullets for 44mag handi rifle and also using in a muzzleloader and not sure what to get for deer hunting. I see XTP mag bullets which say they are bonded, barnes all copper bullets and non bonded bullets. Im also interested in .451/45 bullets for the muzzleloader.

which would be a good fit for deer hunting? From what ive gathered the bonded wont fragment when it his bone, the copper says it retains 100% energy and the normal ones not really info. To me the copper would make sense to fragment, the bonded seems to me like it wouldn't mushroom enough and not really do much damage but maybe im wrong?

For deer in 44 mag it won't matter. My family uses 45 cal 240gr XTP and they work very well... obviously. I cant' imagine a shot where they would not work. If you want to be cool, but copper should technically be superior I think. hah. You won't shoot a million anyways. Have fun!

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

The 240 XTP is a very accurate bullet in every 44 mag and 50 cal ML (in a sabot) I've shot it in. It has also performed very well on deer at a wide range of impact velocities (1100-1800 fps). Yes, the core will occasionally separate from the jacket, but the mass of the remaining core is heavy enough to penetrate and do the job.

Highly recommended.

Of course, over the years I've tried a number of other bullets seeking better performance: bonded, solid copper, higher BC, etc. etc. Those have had genuine issues: hard to find an accurate load, failures to expand, etc. At some point I decided to stop wasting my money chasing promises and just stick with what works: and the 240 XTP just works.

I couldn't agree more. I've killed 10 or more deer in the last 4 or 5 years including 3 last year. Great bullets. Not aerodynamic like some of the high dollar BP bullets but 150 yards and in, it's awesome.
My state KY had a BP weekend 2 weekends ago. My buddy made a HUGE mistake by not shooting his gun before the season because of a busy work schedule. This guy killed a big stack of does, is a very good hunter and shooter. He doesn't get to shoot it before the hunt, and shoots a broadside doe at 162 yards. Hits her in the hip. That 240 gr XTP did separate but only after shattering the pelvis and BOTH femurs. The amount of meat loss was huge but the damage done proved to me that it is one tough bullet. He was hating life the next trying to salvage as much meat as he could amongst all the shattered bone fragment in the hams. With true broadside double lung shots, I don't usually recover the bullet but know they are still expanding some because of the big exit hole they leave.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Much of the problem on this issue is that most hunters think if the deer died within a reasonable distance, the bullet did its job. A failed bullet can easily kill a deer deader than fried chicken but it can also cause disaster the next time it happens. Personally, I don't fool with bullets that don't stay together.

I've killed well over 100 deer and helped friends and family kill and recover over 100 more. I've been a part of many more long, difficult tracking jobs with solid copper and other projectile designs that "held together" than I have been with bullets that "come apart" sometimes like the 240 XTP and the Nosler ballistic tip. I've never seen an instance of inadequate penetration. A well chosen combination of weight and velocity will reach the far side of the vitals every time even with bullets that experience some fragmentation or core-jacket separation. And the damage they cause as they pass through the vitals tends to produce shorter tracking jobs and much lower likelihoods of the deer crossing property lines, creeks, swamps, and other terrain features that make recovery more challenging.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I use a cast 300 tcfp over 110gr of 777 in my muzzleloader. It leaves a 45 hole going in and a slightly bigger one going out. Excellent blood trail but the 2 deer I shot ran about 150 yds. First was double lung second was head on passed through heart lung and liver. I only lost a handful of meat.

 

[Kevinq6]

I've killed well over 100 deer and helped friends and family kill and recover over 100 more. I've been a part of many more long, difficult tracking jobs with solid copper and other projectile designs that "held together" than I have been with bullets that "come apart" sometimes like the 240 XTP and the Nosler ballistic tip. I've never seen an instance of inadequate penetration. A well chosen combination of weight and velocity will reach the far side of the vitals every time even with bullets that experience some fragmentation or core-jacket separation. And the damage they cause as they pass through the vitals tends to produce shorter tracking jobs and much lower likelihoods of the deer crossing property lines, creeks, swamps, and other terrain features that make recovery more challenging.

Here's a test with the 240gr XTP I suppose this is a little light penetration-wise.
My understanding is that the XTP bullets generally tend to be pretty tough, expand conservatively and are good penetrators if loaded within their performance envelope. I have a hard time imagining this not doing the job on a whitetail at muzzleloader distances but I could see using an even better penetrator for muledeer...