Non-lead bullets

[medalguy]

We were touring Arizona these past 2 weeks checking out a lot of national parks and monuments. I noticed at several there were brochures very prominently placed in the visitor's center that stated that non-lead bullets (read solid copper) were claimed by 95% of Arizona hunters to be superior to lead. Really??

Anyone had any experience with non-lead hunting bullets? Logically it would seem to me that these would be pretty non-expanding bullets, sort of FMJ on steroids, and would pass through any game pretty much intact.

The brochures claimed to show X-rays of game killed with traditional bullets with many tiny flecks of lead in the meat that made it dangerous to eat. What say you?

 

[Snyper]

Copper bullets can give as much expansion as lead if properly designed

Lead in no longer legal in much of California, and I'm sure some would like to see those laws expanded

Lead in meat has been blamed for Condor deaths, and some like to say it harms people, but in reality there is no evidence of any harm

 

[rcmodel]

The Barnes TSX is probably the leader in solid copper hunting bullet tech.

Rest assured they do expand, and do not come apart inside the game.

And they do not act the same as a FMJ.

http://www.thediyhunter.com/big-gam...hock-bullets-tsx-ttsx-243-wssm-270-wsm-rifles

rc

 

[jerkface11]

The only problem with them is the price.

 

[Nuclear]

They are re-introducing California Condors into the Grand Canyon, and the environmentalist park rangers believe in the lead bullets in gut piles are poisoning the Condors. Oddly enough, they are the only vultures that seem to suffer from this particular problem (sarcasm). They are the only scavengers that have this problem. And there is no evidence of condors living in the canyon in historic times. But other than the price and tighter barrel twists needed to stabilize them, there is nothing wrong with non lead bullets.

 

[Inebriated]

The brochure is probably BS. May not be, I don't know, but probably...

But copper-only bullets, the Barne's TSX in particular, has amazing performance for a lead-free design.

62gr TSX's populate my HD mags, and I'm planning on using some caliber of TSX to take deer and black bear this coming season, just for the heck of it.

If this, as well as RC's link, doesn't show what they're capable of, I don't know what would.

 

[Dentite]

I don't buy the dangers of lead bullets to scavengers, and I don't like governments like CA making lead bullets illegal for hunting.

But yes, the copper bullets can perform very well.

Here's a TTSX fired through my .300WSM after going through 4 one-gallon jugs of water.

 

[MErl]

These brochures were place by the feds or simply allowed to be placed there by third parties? This sounds like a scare tactic to get hunters against ammo and I'm curious who is paying for it. One would have trouble getting 95% of hunters to agree the sky is blue let alone what bullet is best, that number is a lie.

 

[TimSr]

They are lighter than lead, so a "heavy" copper bullet looks like an arrow, and some guns don't shoot them well. They do expand, but requires a lot more velocity to do it. Copper shotgun slugs used for deer in Ohio are general thought of as not achieving expansion.

I see them as another substandard gimmick to solve a non-exitant problem creted by politicians, like steel shot, but that is just me.

I hope eating small amounts of lead are not harmful, because I know of all the small game I've shot with shotgun and eaten over the years, I could not have possibly sifted out ALL the pellets with my teeth. By teh way, lead pellets are a lot easier on the teeth than steel.

 

[Garrobo]

Anything that the anti-firearms, anti-second amendment, anti-hunting groups like PETA, the ASPCA, the Sierra Club, the Democrat Party, the Soros Group, the Educational or Medical Elitists, etc., can do, say or have printed to make hunting more expensive or difficult is on their agenda. That's where all this c**p comes from.

 

[jmr40]

Used right copper can be as good or better than lead. But they work differently and most everything you know about lead doesn't apply to copper. Some things to consider.

* Copper bullets retain 100% of their original weight after impact, or darn near that. Lead bullets lose 20-80% of their weight after impact.

* As a result copper bullets don't need to weigh as much as lead to give equal penetration.

* They tend to be VERY accurate.

* They are a great choice if using a caliber normally considered borderline for the game hunted. Not really needed if using a caliber that is normally considered acceptable.

* They do need a LOT of speed to expand. Use a bullet too heavy, or shoot them at long range and you get a FMJ at impact. They work best it muzzle velocities of at least 3000 fps and need 2200 fps at impact to expand. Bullet weight or diameter matters very little, all of them penetrate deep and expand if used right. Most people make the mistake of using the same weight they would in lead. You need to drop down at least 1 and probably 2 weights lighter than normal.

* They work well at reasonable ranges, not a good bullet for ranges over 300-400 yards.

* They do cost about 2X what Hornady Interlocks cost. But I don't consider that a huge problem. The cost savings between 200 Barnes bullets and 200 Hornady's won't fill my truck with a tank of gas. 200 bullets will last me several years of hunting. With all the other costs of hunting, and traveling to and from hunting areas an extra 30 cents for a bullet is nothing.

I shoot 130's from my 308 loaded at 3050 fps. About the same speed as 180's from a 300 WM. After imact the 300 WM 180 will weigh about the same, and penetrate about the same as my 130gr/308 at the same speed at reasonable ranges. The 180 from the 300 will hold up much better at extreme ranges.

Another informative article.

http://www.thediyhunter.com/big-gam...hock-bullets-tsx-ttsx-243-wssm-270-wsm-rifles

 

[medalguy]

Thanks to all. I didn't know much about these bullets but I was curious about the brochures in the parks. Better edumacated now.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

We were touring Arizona these past 2 weeks checking out a lot of national parks and monuments. I noticed at several there were brochures very prominently placed in the visitor's center that stated that non-lead bullets (read solid copper) were claimed by 95% of Arizona hunters to be superior to lead. Really??

Anyone had any experience with non-lead hunting bullets? Logically it would seem to me that these would be pretty non-expanding bullets, sort of FMJ on steroids, and would pass through any game pretty much intact.

The brochures claimed to show X-rays of game killed with traditional bullets with many tiny flecks of lead in the meat that made it dangerous to eat. What say you?

Same notice in Arizona hunting regulations books the last few years (which is state not federal).

Modern copper bullets have excellent and consistent expansion characteristics and nearly 100% weight retention. I carried Barnes VOR-TX .308s during deer season last fall. Here is a Barnes TSX for example:

In the case of shotguns, Tungsten alloy shot is far superior to lead giving longer range due to the higher density and tighter patterns due to less pellet deformation. It allows some very tight chokes that can make a 12ga effective to 70 yards or so.

Mike

PS. The danger of lead poising to adults is often overstated/overestimated by the general public. However, the danger to the neurological development to children and teens is very real. Lead fragments will pass through the digestive system of most animals mostly intact. The danger to birds is much more significant because they may use the lead fragments as a gastrolith which will result in significant exposure over time.

 

[barnbwt]

"The danger to birds is much more significant because they may use the lead fragments as a gastrolith which will result in significant exposure over time."

Yup, and even in birds the effects are in practice statistically inscrutable. Shortly after the law passed, it came out that the justification for California's lead hunting ammo ban was entirely fabricated (condor lead levels were completely independent of the prevalence of lead ammunition; not surprisingly, the law is not being repealed as a result). Lead poisoning is now mostly* a non issue except in exceedingly rare and specific circumstances, none of which involve hunting. Exceedingly rare even among bullet casters.

But, the very real problems caused by aerosol lead from gasoline proved a very profitable boogey-man for all manner of abatement measures in subsequent decades, each ever more diminishing in returns & impact than the last, and each ever more expensive and impractical. I think we're down to parts-per-trillion thresholds for certain products at this point. Between global cooling, global warming, green energy, the ozone layer, DDT, mercury in fish, and lead in game animals, you'd think people would be very wary of any claims made by environmental scientists by now; quite possibly the most be-hoaxed and politicized scientific field there is. Somehow every crisis they identify requires draconian solutions at the hands of a benevolent State, and somehow there's always another one needing grant money to explore...

TCB

*since lead gasoline was discontinued

 

[Nuclear]

We've removed lead from gasoline, paint and plumbing. And if you exceed your body's daily need for calcium, it won't uptake lead. At this point in time, it is really hard to get lead poisoning, even if you are a stupid bird, unless it happens to be naturally occurring in your environment, like in water or dust.

 

[Whip Lash]

Lead Pellets

Living in CA and wondering what I might be shooting through my RWS .177 pellet rifle (since lead will be outlawed by the end of this year) I purchased 4500 lead pellets. RWS says not to shoot anything except for lead pellets through their guns. I don't know how long it will take to shoot that many pellets and since I am 63 now, they may last me the rest of my life. If not, I'll find some in another state.

 

[ChaoSS]

Living in CA and wondering what I might be shooting through my RWS .177 pellet rifle (since lead will be outlawed by the end of this year) I purchased 4500 lead pellets. RWS says not to shoot anything except for lead pellets through their guns. I don't know how long it will take to shoot that many pellets and since I am 63 now, they may last me the rest of my life. If not, I'll find some in another state.

Lead is not being banned in California, unless you know something I don't. It's just an issue of lead being banned in hunting.

You will still be able to get good ol lead bullets and pellets in the stores and online.

 

[Gun Geezer]

I have read that Condor stomach acid is in fact ultra nasty and able to dissolve and thus ingest a lead bullet from a gut pile. That's what I read.

Cannot recall ever shooting an animal in the gut. Cannot believe it too likely the bullet would not pass through if I did.

All that said, we will eventually loose lead bullets.

 

[jerkface11]

It's silly to think that there are enough gut piles to cause a problem.

 

[Speedo66]

Copper bullets will dramatically increase the cost of shooting for some. I don't know too many people who have the capability to cast their own copper bullets. The melting temperature of copper is approx. 2000deg F, lead is approx. 600. You're not melting copper on your Coleman.

 

[scythefwd]

well, shoot the neck or the heart and you dont have to worry about lead chips much.. except in the backstrap...

 

[buck460XVR]

well, shoot the neck or the heart and you dont have to worry about lead chips much.. except in the backstrap...

The concern is not for humans, but for scavengers that feed on carcasses left either intentionally or unintentionally in the field. Very similar to the previous ban on the use of lead shot for waterfowl. In Wisconsin we have no Condors, but the substantial increase of lead poisoning found in local Bald Eagles has many in our state considering banning all forms of lead for hunting, this includes upland game bird shot and bullets used for hunting deer. It's believed since Eagles scavenge as much as they kill, that they are ingesting lead when scavenging off dead deer, coyotes and other game lost in the field or the carcasses of those deposited in the field. Remember, one reason that DDT was banned was the Eagles. Pretty rare around here anymore to drive by a car killed deer, without at least one Eagle sitting on top of it.

 

[scythefwd]

My reply was tongue in cheek man..

Barnes makes an excellent bullet

 

[Blacksmoke]

Given some of the residents of my part of rural northern NM, silver bullets are the only answer.

 

[Malamute]

I've heard of increased lead levels in eagles in the rockies from scavenging carcasses. It shows up at certain times of the year I think, after the main hunting seasons.

Its been addressed already, but copper hunting bullets are by no means a result of lead concerns. It seems many feel everything has some nefarious origin or purpose.