Copper fouling

[preacherJohn]

I've experienced some copper fouling this week that was bad enough that my new PPQ Q5 9mm's slide would not completely close. I shoot a whole lot of Xtreme bullets, and lately I have been working up a mid load for this gun that would shoot relatively well with another. I haven't experience this kind of problem with any of my other guns I shoot copper plated bullets through, and this PPQ is relatively new to me being a few months old. It does have about 1000 rounds thru it now. I pulled out a nice copper ring with a copper cleaning brush today that kept the slide from closing with a 1.062 COL Xtreme 124 FP.



Maybe the PPQ's tolerances are tighter than the other guns I have as it does group very nicely. I'm curious as to others who might be experiencing this type of copper fouling/build up also, and if so, what are your barrel cleaning habits?

 

[Walkalong]

I would guess that ring was caused/left from reloading, not firing. Check your flare on the cases.

I like Gunzilla when I need to clean a pistol barrel, like the filthy one on a Taurus I just bought recently.

 

[Walkalong]

Another thought, an aggressive roll crimp on un-chamfered brass can cut off a ring like that.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree, that ring looks like a leftover from reloading, not firing.

 

[preacherJohn]

I guess it could be brass, it's so thin it's hard to tell, so lets talk about this some more. I don't use a crimp die; several months ago I changed over to Hornady American series dies on the 9mm and I thought it claimed to have a taper die. The die flare is set just enough where a bullet will barely hang in there before seating. Actually, 2-3 bullets out of 10 will tip on me before they get to the seating die stopping the whole operation; I've even thought about increasing the flare a tad. So that leaves me back thinking about the taper die. The last bullet I pulled was crimped a little more to my liking, and I was going to ease up on it some. The ring from the crimp around the bullet was a little pronounced, but again, this is suppose to be a taper die. In the PPQ, I have noticed more brass shavings inside the slide. But you don't see them that much in my other gun, or my wife's gun. Maybe this is just a fluke with one casing, but I need to start somewhere. BTW, this brass is mixed and I have prepped it with the in and outside chamfer and deburing tools.

 

[243winxb]

brass is mixed and I have prepped it with the in and outside chamfer and deburing tools.

Mixed brass is different lengths, making the amount of taper crimp different on each brass.

Chamfer and deburr after trimming only.

Copper or lead rings, left in chambers, is done on seating the bullets. My 45 acp lead ring was caused by a die that started removing the flare on the case mouth to soon.

I did 2 things to correct it. Opened the inside diameter of the seat die and taper crimped in a separate operation.

 

[cfullgraf]

Chamfer the inside of the case mouth to take the square edge of the brass off. This will help guide the bullet into the case and eliminate much of the shaving of material from the bullet.

 

[preacherJohn]

I did 2 things to correct it. Opened the inside diameter of the seat die and taper crimped in a separate operation.

Eeek; I'm out of stations unless I want to do this on another press. The other option would be to lose my powder cop.

 

[preacherJohn]

Chamfer the inside of the case mouth to take the square edge of the brass off.

I already did this Chuck; it's possible one casing could have slipped by though.

 

[243winxb]

When you thin the mouth of the brass by Chamfer and deburr, it may be easier to cut off with a crimp, if over done.

Remember the 9mm headspaces on the case mouth. Unless its forward movement is stopped by the extractor.

 

[higgite]

One way to check for over crimping is to pull a bullet and see if the plating is indented or even scratched off. With mixed brass, it’s easy to get either or both on some rounds. You can also look closely at a loaded cartridge to see if there is a buildup of copper at the mouth of the case that was scraped off during simultaneous seating/crimping.

That said, the ring in your pic looks pretty substantial and symmetrical. I’m guessing it’s case brass, not copper plating. You may be chamfering the case mouth too thin.

 

[ATLDave]

Allow me to join the chorus of those expressing skepticism that the depicted ring is "copper fouling." I agree this is likely some kind of reloading artifact.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

In any event, what you showed us in not "copper fouling" . Copper fouling is the copper residue left in the barrel when a copper jacketed bullet passes through it. You showed us real copper, not residue left inside the barrel.

 

[Zendude]

I’ve had half rings show up a couple of times. I also use Xtreme copper plated bullets with a combination seat and crimp die. I assumed it was from insufficient case flare along with perhaps the case being a bit long.

 

[preacherJohn]

I assumed it was from insufficient case flare

Could be; I might flare a little bit more, at least till the bullets stay put when set on the case. I was having problems with the ram sticking when lowering it and thought the PTX might be hanging onto the case too much. That and lightening the crimp a little and see where that gets me.

 

[preacherJohn]

I put the magnifying specs on this afternoon, and this ring isn't brass; it's definitely copper.

 

[higgite]

Have you inspected any chambered but unfired rounds to see if any plating is being scraped off the bullets during chambering?

 

[preacherJohn]

OK, I'm not much of a photographer, especially with my 8" tablet, but here they are. The crimp doesn't look overly bad. I pulled two bullets of two different reloading sessions, but the bullet seat and crimp remained constant, I just adjusted the powder drop by .1 gr. I did notice some black crap in one of the casings which is shown in one picture. I'm not sure what that is, could be copper, powder, or both, but either way, that case was sparkling clean before it was loaded. I believe this copper ring developed itself in the two piece barrel this PPQ has. I've discussed this barrel before, because after firing the cases look like that glock bulge of the 40's. I really don't know why or how the ring developed at all. Not sure what to do except increase the flare a tad on the case.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I can't see how a two piece barrel would cause this to happen. I have serious doubts it's the barrel, way to much research goes into these guns for that to happen and if it were the barrel it would happen with factory ammo too.

 

[ATLDave]

OK, I'm not much of a photographer, especially with my 8" tablet, but here they are. The crimp doesn't look overly bad. I pulled two bullets of two different reloading sessions, but the bullet seat and crimp remained constant, I just adjusted the powder drop by .1 gr. I did notice some black crap in one of the casings which is shown in one picture. I'm not sure what that is, could be copper, powder, or both, but either way, that case was sparkling clean before it was loaded. I believe this copper ring developed itself in the two piece barrel this PPQ has. I've discussed this barrel before, because after firing the cases look like that glock bulge of the 40's. I really don't know why or how the ring developed at all. Not sure what to do except increase the flare a tad on the case. View attachment 798391 View attachment 798392 View attachment 798393 View attachment 798394 View attachment 798395 View attachment 798396 View attachment 798397

What kind of cases are you using?

It appears to me that the ring is the diameter of the case, not the diameter of the bullet. Is that right?

 

[higgite]

I don't believe PPQs have 2 piece barrels, but I may be wrong. What they do have, though, are stepped chambers. That "Glock bulge" that you're seeing probably isn't a Glock bulge. The case mouth just expands less than the rest of the case, giving it a slight bottle neck look. My 9mm HKs have that same step. As I understand it, it was George Luger's original design intended to enhance the case to chamber seal when the case expands. You can find lots of discussion about it on the Walther forum. If your pistol has it, it will be a small step just before the larger step that the cartridge headspaces on.

If one of your cases had too much flare at the case mouth, that step in the chamber could have sheared a ring off as the case was pushed into battery. Or it could be a build up of many rounds. Especially with chamfered mouths that are thin at the edge. What is the case mouth OD of your finished rounds?

 

[preacherJohn]

What kind of cases are you using?

Mixed brass.

If one of your cases had too much flare at the case mouth

If anything, I don't think it has enough flare; 2-3 out of 10 bullets are tipping on me before they get to the seat die.

What is the case mouth OD of your finished rounds?

.376 on the finish round with bullet; .3795 flare without the bullet.

probably isn't a Glock bulge.

I realize this isn't a Glock bulge, it was the easiest way I could think to explain it. The bottle neck terminology sounds better.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That ring is from a case. It has nothing to do with the construction of your barrel.

I usually see them on my shell plate after the cartridge comes out of the Lee FCD. It is fairly rare for these "rings" to get into your chamber. If they don't fall off coming out of the die, they're usually dislodged in the catch bin. I would think that you'd detect them when you chamber check your loaded cartridges.

It has less to do with the amount of flare you're using as it has to do with the differing lengths of your cases. I alleviated the issue when I started sorting my cases by headstamp.

With regards to your bullets coming dislodged between stations. You need to increase the amount of flare/expansion that you are using

 

[preacherJohn]

it has to do with the differing lengths of your cases

This is interesting and disappointing at the same time. You're telling me case length causes and creates these rings? I'm in my 60's and have been shooting my whole life and this is the first time I've ever experience this. What is causing the case to separate? Is there certain brass that should be avoided reloading? Up until this year, all my brass has been bullets I've bought, shot, and retrieved new. After I got into 40 cal, I didn't have much brass to reload, so I ordered 500 "once fired rounds" to reload. By mistake, the company I ordered from also included 500 rounds of 9mm "once fired brass" and I've seen headstamps that I never heard of before. Buy hey, if they're going to ship these, they must be OK, right? Well, probably not seeing as how the ring mysteriously showed up in a barrel of one of my guns. What difference would the length of the case make anyway? The barrels on my guns chamber them alright. Kerplunk, kerplunk... I do check the case with a case gauge after I debur, chamfer, and resize the case. As far as checking each case with a gauge after it's completed seems redundant to me. I occasionally check one here and there, but not each and everyone. Manufacturer's won't do that, or at least not to my knowledge.

I alleviated the issue when I started sorting my cases by headstamp

So, what headstamps did you notice causing the most problems? I'll look for them more closely and discard to the recycle tub. You're right about that bullet should have never reached my barrel to begin with. I can't believe it got past my hands when loading the magazine. But anything is possible.

 

[Walkalong]

It isn't the headstamp per say, it is the differences in case lengths of unsorted.