Cops complain about gun availability yet recycle weapons.

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jsalcedo

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http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/...5675386c.html?current_report=resale_of_police


Cops attack gun availability, yet recycle own weapons
Few props carry the impact of a semiautomatic assault rifle. So on June 9, 1999, when Mayor Sharpe James announced that Newark would sue gun manufacturers to recover the costs of gun violence, the mayor picked up an AK-47 rifle.

"It's immoral and unconscionable that you can purchase a weapon of destruction over the counter like popcorn and ice cream," James said as he gripped the rifle.

With less fanfare 10 months earlier, authorities in Baltimore had made a drug arrest and seized a sub-machine gun. That weapon was allowed to go on the market by the city of Newark, according to records from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, or ATF.

In fact, Newark has provided more than 1,500 firearms to gun dealers who in turn sell the used weapons over the counter. Like most New Jersey cities, Newark trades in used police weapons to dealers who provide a large discount when the city buys new police guns. It's as legal as selling popcorn.

Some cities have recycled hundreds of guns, some with high-capacity magazines that can no longer be manufactured, even as they work to reduce the guns available on the street.

Camden City and Camden County governments both sued gun manufacturers over the carnage caused by gun violence, yet combined they have traded in more than 250 guns. Dozens of cities, including Atlantic City, Pleasantville and Vineland, have run gun buy-back programs to take guns off the street, yet have provided hundreds of guns to dealers for resale.

The state requires all guns confiscated from criminals to be destroyed.

New Jersey law-enforcement agencies traded in nearly 12,000 weapons from 1985 to 2000. More than 100 of those guns were ultimately used in crimes, according to an analysis of ATF gun records by The Press of Atlantic City. Guns originally owned by police departments were used in murders in Florida and Puerto Rico. Two were used in suicides.

The actual numbers of New Jersey guns traded in and used in crimes are undoubtedly higher. Press reporters restricted their research only to police departments in the Atlantic City region and those statewide with 100 or more officers, accounting for about one-third of the state's police force. However, the vast majority of New Jersey police departments have traded weapons when they upgraded their guns.

The Press obtained the makes and serial numbers of guns traded in by police and compared them with ATF reports that traced ownership of guns used in crimes. (Most police departments willingly provided gun trade-in information. But several cities, including Trenton, Newark, Camden and Cherry Hill, provided the information only after The Press filed complaints charging Open Public Records Act violations.)

Here's what happened to some of the weapons, according to ATF records.

In 1996, a Trenton police gun was among a number of guns seized from the car of a man charged with killing a 17-year-old boy in a drive-by shooting near Nashville.

Colt revolver originally used by the N.J. State Police - which has ended its practice of weapons trade-ins - was used in a Jacksonville-area homicide about 10 years ago.

A 9 mm Smith & Wesson handgun traded in by Franklin Township police in Somerset County was used in a Miami-area homicide in 1998.

A former Newark Smith & Wesson was used by a Mobile, Ala., man who pistol-whipped his girlfriend and fired at her several times. Fortunately, he missed.

Questions from Press reporters about the practice have already caused some government agencies, including the state of New Jersey, to reverse their policies of trading in used guns.

A few public agencies had already decided to destroy or warehouse used guns.

Armando Fountoura became Essex County sheriff in 1990 after serving as a Newark policeman for 22 years. Two years ago, his department could have saved nearly $80,000 by trading in old weapons when it bought new guns.

Instead, Fountoura ordered 432 guns to be melted down.

"There are too many guns out there," he said. "The last thing I'm going to do is put more of them on the street. ... Some day, a police gun is going to be used to kill a police officer."

The sheriff noted that many cities have conducted gun buy-back programs, paying about $50 for handguns turned in by the public to reduce the number in circulation.

"Why, then, would we turn around and sell our guns, which gets them back on the street?" he asked.

Lawrence Keane of the National Shooting Sports Foundation criticized cities like Newark and Camden that sue manufacturers for selling guns while the cities themselves sell guns. Newark's suit in part charges manufacturers with negligent marketing and distribution of guns.

"It's the height of hypocrisy for these public agencies to sue the gun makers for doing what they are essentially doing," Keane said.

City officials in Newark and Camden refused to respond to requests for comment.

Camden mayoral spokesman Tony Evans said he did not know his city had sued gun manufacturers - the case is pending - and refused to comment on why the city has traded in weapons. City attorney Dennis Kille did not return repeated calls for comment.

Newark Mayor James also did not return repeated calls for comment. A hearing on motions in Newark's gun-manufacturer lawsuit is scheduled for May 9.

Some officials defended gun trade-ins as a way to save tax dollars.

Dealers discount the cost of new guns when old ones are traded in. Sometimes the discount is deep enough to entirely cover the cost of the new guns. This is especially true when departments trade in guns with magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition. Congress banned the manufacture of such magazines in 1994, but allowed existing magazines to be resold.

Atlantic City Public Safety Director Robert Flipping said with so many guns legally available, destroying used police guns wouldn't make it any harder for anyone to buy a gun.

"If a person is going to legitimately buy a gun and then use it in a crime, it doesn't matter if it was (originally) one of our guns," Flipping said. "The person would have purchased a different gun."

Atlantic City police traded in 460 guns between 1985 and 2000; eight were believed to have been used in crimes, according to ATF records.

Rethinking policies

Over the last 20 years, many police officials decided their officers needed more firepower to counter the sophisticated weaponry carried by gangs and drug dealers. Many officers used revolvers that held six bullets, while the criminals' guns had magazines that held 15 or more rounds.

Many cities might not have been able to afford more powerful guns for their police without the discounts provided through trade-ins.

After a few years, though, when police wanted to again upgrade their guns, those higher-capacity guns were traded in to dealers who resold them. In April 1992, Union Township in Union County traded in 28 machine guns. Ironically, among the former police guns used in crimes, many were confiscated from people charged with drug offenses.

For example, a loaded 9 mm Beretta that originated with the Woodbridge Police Department was taken from drug dealers arrested in Hyattsville, Md., in January 1999.

Uneasy over crimes committed with former police guns, some departments have financially bit the bullet and have foregone the discounts that come with trades.

After The Press asked about the practice, Trenton Police Director Joseph Santiago decided his department will no longer trade in used weapons. Since 1985, Trenton had traded in nearly 400 guns, 13 of which were used in crimes. In the future, the guns will be offered to police officers to buy or will be destroyed, Santiago said.

Eighteen months ago, when the N.J. State Police purchased new guns, former Attorney General John Farmer decided not to let the old guns back onto the market.

More than 3,000 former State Police guns are being warehoused in a state-owned building somewhere in New Jersey until they are melted down.

The no-trade policy, however, didn't extend to all of state government - at least until The Press asked why the State Police banned the practice while the Department of Corrections would soon trade guns in. After consulting with Gov. James E. McGreevey, Corrections Commissioner Devon Brown decided to stop future gun trade-ins.

"The governor clearly believes that no barter can offset the price of crime," Corrections spokesman Chris Carden said.

As a result of Press inquiries, McGreevey spokesman Micah Rasmussen said, the attorney general is developing a no-trade policy for all state agencies that use weapons. It won't affect local and county agencies, but look for the governor to announce an end to state weapons trade-ins any day.
 
Damn, what kind of popcorn do they have in Newark? That is some seriously regulated snack food.
 
wow..does this mean I can go to my local ffl,fill out the paperwork,do the background check and walk out with that oh so evil gun?I dont know...oh never mind..its jersey,they have no reality checks there.


in other news...a car that was once purchased by john smith,anytown,usa ended up in a drunk driving accident by 3 underage teens in boondockville.the car was traced back to mr smith,who admitted selling it due to his paralysis, to another man in the next city.the new owner admitted modifying it for racing.


these guy really make me wanna:barf:
 
StateCorp at it's finest.

If I were a cop, knowing that my gun would be sold out there, I'd at least have an idea what I would be up against.

Hey, when are the Federals going to start this? I want me one of those FBI MP-5s :)
 
M-Rex

Not to be disrespectful, but are you stalking me or just padding your post count?

You have challenged the legitamacy of 5 of my threads so far.

Maybe you should take it to the moderators or ask to become a moderator yourself.

Regards,
Jsalcedo
 
I think it is good for Law enforcement to sell their used guns to the private sector. It helps re-coup some cash and gives someone access to a well maintained firearm. I think the military should have to do the same thing.

Crime is psychological
 
I wonder how many police car trade ins have been used by drunk drivers or speeders.

Has anyone done a study comparing accidental deaths with guns (yeah, I know they lump all deaths in as 'accidental') with the number of deaths caused by cars?

Yes, I know I could probably look it up myself, but I'm wondering if someone has ALREADY done it and shown how x percent more people are killed by autos, that aren't governed by the constitution as opposed to guns.
 
After The Press asked about the practice, Trenton Police Director Joseph Santiago decided his department will no longer trade in used weapons... In the future, the guns will be offered to police officers to buy or will be destroyed....

At least they're letting them eat cake...
 
Trenton Police Director Joseph Santiago decided his department will no longer trade in used weapons... In the future, the guns will be offered to police officers to buy or will be destroyed....
If I were a NJ taxpayer, I'd be more than a little PO'ed that this clown gets to waste my tax $$$ in some sort of misguided act of political correctness because they feel the need to upgrade their sidearms without recovering the residual value of the used weapons. Bad busines, bad government:barf:
 
jsalcedo said:
M-Rex


Not to be disrespectful, but are you stalking me or just padding your post count?

You have challenged the legitamacy of 5 of my threads so far.

Maybe you should take it to the moderators or ask to become a moderator yourself.

Regards,
Jsalcedo

No offense taken. You have a habit of posting obscure, usually anti-cop, news stories behind the facade of just trying to be informative. The thread title caught my eye.

So far, you are 5 for 5 on obscure anti-cop stories. Noticing a pattern?
 
JScealdo has a point, what you are doing is considered either spamming or trolling, I can't remember which. Most forums; if people don't contribute to the discussion the posts are deleted, and if the behavior continues the member is reprimanded.

Just an FYI, 'netiquette' is as new as the internet, so we all have to learn as we go along.
 
Moderator Note

If you have a personal problem with another member, please take it to email or PM. Don't inflict it on the rest of us.

pax
 
M-Rex said:
No offense taken. You have a habit of posting obscure, usually anti-cop, news stories behind the facade of just trying to be informative. The thread title caught my eye.

So far, you are 5 for 5 on obscure anti-cop stories. Noticing a pattern?

This thread is not anti-cop, it is anti-liberal and anti-bureaucrat. The bureaucrats making these decisions are not cops IMHO, they are politicians. The article is pointing out the hypocracy of stupid politicians/bureaucrats that complain about guns on the street but then are selling guns themselves. It definitely shoots holes at all the lawsuits attempted against gun manufacturers. I don't have a problem with them selling guns. I wish they would keep doing it. However, it is another case of liberals complaining about everything and accursing other people of wrongdoing without every doing any self examination.
 
pax said:
Moderator Note

If you have a personal problem with another member, please take it to email or PM. Don't inflict it on the rest of us.

pax

Not a problem at all.

Merely pointing out the general anti-LEO theme of the thread starters. I find it interesting how much this is tolerated.
 
M-Rex said:
Not a problem at all.
...anti-LEO theme of the thread starters. I find it interesting how much this is tolerated.

He's just enjoying his right while it lasts. Don't worry, give it five or ten years and you'll have your paradise. If not sooner.

As for that politician, heh, maybe he's an NRA 5th column. Gun basher by day, but when the sun goes down he sells 1500 guns to dealers.;) Just kidding, lol.
 
Well for what it's worth I appreciate the information. It was something I'd consider important for all gun owners to know.
 
I just post for informative purposes. Most of my articles come from the NRA


I have no agenda. I like good cops but I'm not afraid of posting strange bad cop stuff.
 
Since this article dates to 2003, and the AWB has expired, except in NJ of course, I wonder does anyone know if the Camden suit against the gun manufacturers has been dropped, in light of the lawful commerce in firearms act?????

Geez, so when a cop moves out of a house do we burn it down so no criminal can live there in the future????

These folks are scarry, do they really believe that being an Ex police gun imbues an inanimate object with some special sentient evil.
 
Now this thread is branded as anti-LEO? Wow, that term is thrown around almost as much as the "race card" is played by the likes of Sharpton and Jackson.
 
Trip20 said:
Now this thread is branded as anti-LEO? Wow, that term is thrown around almost as much as the "race card" is played by the likes of Sharpton and Jackson.

Allow me to spell it out for you.

The title implies some sort of sinister hypocracy on part of LEO's that they smile when they trade in their firearms, yet frown when someone purchases them. Why else would it be written that way?

The story is almost three years old and isn't exactly cutting edge information anymore. Hence, my answer, "so?" Not to mention that it's, more or less, simply more leftist administrator hand-wringing.

If the article isn't current, and doesn't offer any topical information, then what is the thread starter's intent on it's posting?

To inflame attitudes against LEO's perhaps? Couple that with the thread starter's habit of searching out obscure, anti-cop stories, then claiming to "just post for informative purposes".

Do I really need to draw you a map?
 
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