Correct 223 primers?

[lefteye42]

Setting up to load 223 for my son's AR15 (stamped 5.56). Safety-wise, I question if CCI 400 might cause slam-fires, even though my manuals say use the 400s. Pocket prep is done to spec, along with primer seating @ .005 .
Consensus among experienced AR reloaders is to use CCI 450s or #41. Unable to find these, so I grabbed 2k of the CCI 400s.
Call me OCD, but my son's face is important!
Should I just keep the 400s for bolt 223, & continue search for the "tougher" primers?
Appreciate advice.

 

[Bullseye]

I use CCI 400 myself and have yet to have a problem in any of the three rifles.

 

[JO JO]

I use CCI450 or rem 7 1/2 , when in doubt use what the load in the book says, always wear shooting eye protection, with the cost of 223 going down there are some good sales nowadays you can have your son shot factory ammo and you keep the brass

 

[firewrench044]

Several manuals that address loading for service rifles, recommend CCI # 41
and that includes CCI on their web site
The # 41 is a magnum primer that does have the thicker cup like the # 450 magnum primer
The # 41 also has reduced sensitivity, they have a different anvil, that is farther away from the compound
so not if, but when the firing pin does hit it when the bolt closes on a round, the primer does not ignite
from that light strike

The AR15 is not as bad as some other service rifles for slam fires but it does happen in them
I have seen it happen in AR15s, ( 2 times ) durring competitions, 1 rifle was trashed with minor injury to the competitors R hand
the other had no damage done

The # 41 primer is insurance against slam fires
Why take a chance ??

 

[Reloadron]

I use CCI 400 and CCI 450. The use of standard or magnum depends on the powder and how I work up the loads. I have also used the CCI #41 (For 5.56 Ammunition) offering up the military specification sensitivity.The CCI #41 which is a magnum type primer is designed to be a less sensitivity primer so if you have concerns as to a slam fire it is a good way to go. I did some velocity testing using CCI 400, CCI 450, CCI #41 and CCI BR 4. Keep in mind I was more focused on velocity difference than group but here is what I got:

Again, if you have concerns as to a slam fire then consider the CCI #41. Personally I don't worry about it but it is your call. I have also used Remington 7 1/2 with good results.

Ron

 

[otisrush]

Take the following with a grain of salt......I've only been loading for 3 years or so.

When I've read about and observed discussions about slam fires the concern hasn't been primer sensitivity - it is primer HEIGHT. If the primer isn't fully seated - and the primer surface is equal to or higher than the case head - then the possibility of a slam fire goes up. So be sure the primer is fully seated - and below the face of the case head.

I'm not saying primer sensitivity isn't an issue. I don't know that it is or isn't. I'm just saying that in my travels, whenever this topic has been discussed, it has always been around primer height.

I use CCI 450s (Magnum) because my Speer manual calls for them when using a ball powder - which I do (H335).

OR

 

[dieselchief]

I one time loaded 223 with rem 6 1/2 primers. blew holes in the cup. found out they are for more like hornet and bee. just a friendly warning. bob

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I load with H335 so I like to use a Magnum primer. CCI450 is what I use when not using the CCI #41 primers. Like the others namesake, Rem 7 1/2 and CCI 400 primers also work well.

 

[JO JO]

to me there is just no reason to take a chance even if it is a very slight chance especially if your going to reload for someone else to shoot your reloads in this case your kid !!

 

[cfullgraf]

I've loaded CCI #400 primers in my 223 Remington with no ill effects. It is important that the primer are seated correctly, primarily no high primers.

I use Remington 7-1/2 primers in my 204 Ruger loads shot in an AR-15.

I found some CCI #41 primers for a good price and I stocked up on them just because. But I'd use #400 primers, or Remington 7-1/2 primers, if and when I run out of the #41s.

Do not use Remington 6-1/2 primers as they are too sensitive for use in an AR-15--and most other centerfire rifle cartridges.

 

[rg1]

I know many use CCI 400's in AR-15 loading but I wouldn't. When I retract the bolt on an AR to eject the unfired round it always seems to have a little dent where the firing pin contacted the primer and that's with RP 7 1/2 primers or CCI 41's and they have the thicker cup, .025" rather than the .020" of the CCI 400. Recommended primers for AR's are RP 7 1/2, CCI 41, CCI 450, and CCI BR4. Here is the best article I've read on primers: scroll down through all the info. http://www.sksboards.com/smf/?topic=56422.0 Remington warns to not use RP 6 1/2 in .223 loads and it has the same .020" cup as the CCI 400.

 

[Walkalong]

Before the world knew better we just used small rifle primers, either standard or mag depending on the powder, and I don't remember a lot of problems, I know I didn't have any, but it only makes sense to use a harder cup/less sensitive primer for semi autos in .223.

 

[Rule3]

Before the (ADVERTISERS) knew better we just used small rifle primers, either standard or mag depending on the powder, and I don't remember a lot of problems, I know I didn't have any, but it only makes sense to use a harder cup/less sensitive primer for semi autos in .223.

I fixed you post above for ya.

My Hornady, Lyman, Speer manuals as well as Hodgdon on line and even Nosler SERVICE Load data show the use of regular SRP. No mention of the "military #41 as they were not promoted then.. This topic should be a sticky!

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/556x45-nato/

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Even the late rc model posted, that the chances of a slam fire in a AR 15 is slim to none, Which is why you chamber from the magazine and do not drop a cartridge direct into the chamber as the striping the round from the mag slows down the bolt a little.

 

[kingmt]

I've been using Tula for a few years. I have marks on the unfired primers. I've chambered the same round over & over maybe better then 20 times without getting any slam fires so far.

 

[Blue68f100]

The Military are the ones who asked for the Harder primers. They were the ones concern about slam fires. That is why you no not see a lot of data specifying Mil spec primers. Handloading was for the civilian world since the military does not reload there ammo. The 5.56 runs a high pressure than 223R, so the harder cup primers helps from blowing them. Using the mil-spec primers is just cheap insurance against a slam-fire. I use the #41's or Rem 7 1/2 depending on load. I have some loads that prefer the 7 1/2 over the #41.

 

[wally]

We went into great detail about this issue a while back:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mil-spec-primers-or-not.814192/

Consensus seemed to be: buy them if you can find them at a reasonable price, if not the CCI 400/450 have a long history of usage in semi-auto rifles.

 

[Rule3]

We went into great detail about this issue a while back:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/mil-spec-primers-or-not.814192/

Consensus seemed to be: buy them if you can find them at a reasonable price, if not the CCI 400/450 have a long history of usage in semi-auto rifles.

Yes, yes we did and will continue to do so every month or so. It will never end,
This should go in with the LFCD threads and the wet vs dry brass cleaning methods!

The data in the manuals and online show regular SRP and make no mentioned of special military primers. Millions and millions of rounds have been loaded with regular SRP.

Even the data for SERVICE ROUNDS (Hornady and Nosler) Heck they even use Win Primers which everyone know that they are softer than say CCI) shows regular primers Someone needs to write to the companies and tell them they are all wrong!.

If those with the NEW edition of Hornady would please check and see what primer is listed in the new edition?? Has it changed??

 

[RussellC]

I've been using Tula for a few years. I have marks on the unfired primers. I've chambered the same round over & over maybe better then 20 times without getting any slam fires so far.

I have been told by one of my more trusted dealers that the Tulas are also using harder cups.

Myself, I've used the CCI Nato primers, I've used a ton of Winchester SRP. Never a slam fire...not that it couldnt happen.

Russellc

 

[cougar1717]

Safety-wise, I question if CCI 400 might cause slam-fires, even though my manuals say use the 400s.
Consensus among experienced AR reloaders is to use CCI 450s or #41. Unable to find these, so I grabbed 2k of the CCI 400s.
Should I just keep the 400s for bolt 223, & continue search for the "tougher" primers?
Appreciate advice.

CCI 400's are good in semi-auto. So are WSR's. Many reloading manuals use one of these two in their data. I think about all the 223 brass that I see/pick up at the local range. Most of it is not actual 5.56; ie standard primers, some primers crimped, some not, no annealing, etc. The vast majority are fired out of AR's. I've never personally had or witnessed a slamfire with an AR. IMHO, there is no need to match the military spec unless you're asking the ammo to do what the military requires it to do. Mil-specs are absolutely used to sell guns and ammo, but most consumers will never need those "extras" in semi-auto.

 

[kingmt]

Speaking of what the army uses/used. When I went through during basic we went through a bunch of ammo & blanks. I had several issues with weapon function firing blanks but I don't remember one failing to fire. With ammo including all my years in shooting 98 rounds a year (yeah we didn't shoot much) I remember maybe a total of around 20 rounds that failed to fire. However we were never allowed to tear the rifles down before going to the field with them & they often got loaned to do events & I knew of more then once they weren't cleaned & once it wasn't put back together right. SOP was to clear the malfunction & keep driving on so there was no time to actually identify the problem.

 

[lefteye42]

Thanks to all for good input. Puts my mind @ ease. I would much rather enjoy "the shoot" than wonder "Did I do it right"?

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I started out using CCI 400's and had no issues. Once I used those up, I caught the CCI 450's on sale at Cabela's and bought 5K of them. That's what I'm running now.

 

[Kaldor]

1000s of CCI 400s used in my AR's. Never had an issue.
Use em up, and buy more. Most of us never touch the pressure levels where you would need a primer with a thicker cup.

 

[Walkalong]

This thread isn't about pressures and primers. It's about slam fires and primers.

 

[Slamfire]

Slamfires happen. The US Military developed the #41 primer because the early M16's had slamfires with the commercial primers of the era. They also lightened the firing pin to reduce the inertial impact on the primer. The #41 primer is a less sensitive primer than a commercial primer, but because primer sensitivity varies, there is always a chance of a slamfire even with military spec primers. Therefore, never chamber a round with the muzzle pointing at something you do not want to put a hole in.

If you shoot enough rounds through a AR15, you will have or see a slamfire occur with commercial primers. The most dangerous condition is single loading with the muzzle pointed at the ground. That little extra speed added to the bolt by gravity caused enough slamfires that the NRA forbid loading on the shooting stool. Competitors using AR15 actions would rest the muzzle on the shooting stool, during the standing stage, they dropped a round in the chamber and hit the bolt release. Enough AR`15's slamfired through shooting stools on the firing line that the practice of reloading on the stool was forbidden. This was never a problem with the M1a as you loaded the thing with the muzzle up.

Slamfires in AR15's tend to be in battery, unlike slamfires in the Garand mechanisms and the FN49, which also occur out of battery.

I recommend using the least sensitive primers you can find for all semi automatic mechanisms, but it is your choice.