corrosive ammo
- Thread starter Jim_100
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esmith
Member
It's #2 of what you just said. There are corrosive salts in the primers of a lot of milsurp ammunition. Just run some windex or some hot water down the pipe, dry it out, clean it like normal, oil her down, and you're good to go.
woad_yurt
Member
The ammonia in Windex, a base, neutralizes the acid residue left by corrosive ammo.
Bartkowski
Member
I don't think there is any acid in the primer. Maybe I just don't know, but I am pretty sure its salt that attracts water.
And my hot water method followed by regular cleaning has worked so far. No windex is needed.
And my hot water method followed by regular cleaning has worked so far. No windex is needed.
esmith
Member
This has been accepted and refused by a lot of people. Usually when theres a good amount of people saying something isn't true, i refuse it as well.
Bartkowski
Member
Regardless of what people say, if you use hot water (lots of it) then dry, clean, and oil normally, you will be fine.
ftierson
Member.
Exactly...
Hot, soapy water dissolves the salts, then oil...
Ammonia just smells bad and, if the solution is too strong, will do it's own damage to your bore if left in the bore too long...
Forrest
Hot, soapy water dissolves the salts, then oil...
Ammonia just smells bad and, if the solution is too strong, will do it's own damage to your bore if left in the bore too long...
Forrest
Bartkowski
Member
ftierson, can't ammonia cause pitting if it's to strong?
dfariswheel
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- 6,656
First, understand WHAT the corrosive element is.
It's a form of salt produced by the primer.
When fired, the primer produces a type of salt, and deposits microscopic crystals of salt everywhere the fumes come in contact.
This was discovered after WWI when the military unpacked rifles that had been cleaned and coated with cosmoline at the end of the war.
They were shocked to discover rifles had rusted UNDER the grease.
A scientist investigated and discovered that the primer in the corrosive ammo was producing a form of salt which attracted moisture and caused rusting.
What you have to do is dissolve the microscopic salt crystals and flush it out.
About the only thing that will dissolve salt is WATER.
There are cleaning materials that contain water and will work, but since nothing is cheaper than water, that's the best thing to use.
To clean the rifle after corrosive ammo, use HOT water to flush every surface the fumes may have contacted.
By using HOT water, the metal will get hot and will self-dry, so it won't rust.
After thoroughly flushing with hot water, clean the rifle as normal with bore solvent, and apply a lube to prevent rust.
Some notes:
Nothing really works as well as water or something that's mostly water.
Many black powder bore solvents are good, but cost more than water.
Some people use Windex, but the only reason it works is because it's mostly water.
Windex CAN be used to "hold" the rifle and do some pre-cleaning by giving the bore and action a good flush at the range.
This will prevent rust until you can get home, if you live in a humid environment, and helps loosen fouling.
NO normal bore solvent or lube will work, unless they contain lots of water.
To test a material for use with corrosive ammo, pour some into a clear glass, and add a little table salt.
Unless the salt dissolves into suspension and "disappears" it's no good for cleaning corrosive ammo.
This means CLP Breakfree and most all other lubes, and most modern bore solvents are useless.
"Shooting the corrosion out" by shooting non-corrosive ammo after corrosive ammo doesn't work.
It "may" blow the microscopic salt crystals out of the bore, but it does nothing for the deposits on everything else.
By using the hottest water possible and allowing the metal to get hot, you prevent rusting since the metal self-drys.
Some of us who take really good care of our guns also clean the rifle AGAIN a day or two later to get any fouling that is in the pores and works it's way out later.
Using hot water to clean the rifle of corrosive fumes is simply a pre-cleaning step that has to be taken.
It's not a substitute for normal cleaning with bore solvent to remove bullet fouling and carbon.
It's a form of salt produced by the primer.
When fired, the primer produces a type of salt, and deposits microscopic crystals of salt everywhere the fumes come in contact.
This was discovered after WWI when the military unpacked rifles that had been cleaned and coated with cosmoline at the end of the war.
They were shocked to discover rifles had rusted UNDER the grease.
A scientist investigated and discovered that the primer in the corrosive ammo was producing a form of salt which attracted moisture and caused rusting.
What you have to do is dissolve the microscopic salt crystals and flush it out.
About the only thing that will dissolve salt is WATER.
There are cleaning materials that contain water and will work, but since nothing is cheaper than water, that's the best thing to use.
To clean the rifle after corrosive ammo, use HOT water to flush every surface the fumes may have contacted.
By using HOT water, the metal will get hot and will self-dry, so it won't rust.
After thoroughly flushing with hot water, clean the rifle as normal with bore solvent, and apply a lube to prevent rust.
Some notes:
Nothing really works as well as water or something that's mostly water.
Many black powder bore solvents are good, but cost more than water.
Some people use Windex, but the only reason it works is because it's mostly water.
Windex CAN be used to "hold" the rifle and do some pre-cleaning by giving the bore and action a good flush at the range.
This will prevent rust until you can get home, if you live in a humid environment, and helps loosen fouling.
NO normal bore solvent or lube will work, unless they contain lots of water.
To test a material for use with corrosive ammo, pour some into a clear glass, and add a little table salt.
Unless the salt dissolves into suspension and "disappears" it's no good for cleaning corrosive ammo.
This means CLP Breakfree and most all other lubes, and most modern bore solvents are useless.
"Shooting the corrosion out" by shooting non-corrosive ammo after corrosive ammo doesn't work.
It "may" blow the microscopic salt crystals out of the bore, but it does nothing for the deposits on everything else.
By using the hottest water possible and allowing the metal to get hot, you prevent rusting since the metal self-drys.
Some of us who take really good care of our guns also clean the rifle AGAIN a day or two later to get any fouling that is in the pores and works it's way out later.
Using hot water to clean the rifle of corrosive fumes is simply a pre-cleaning step that has to be taken.
It's not a substitute for normal cleaning with bore solvent to remove bullet fouling and carbon.
Jeff F
Member
I shoot a lot of corrosive surplus ammo. I have used hot or hot soapy watter for years with very good results. They have been using hot water ever since guns were invented, thats good enough for me.
Bartkowski
Member
You don't even need soap, the water works well enough. The soap will just get rid of any oil in the bore.
woad_yurt
Member
Corrosion and oxidation are two different things. Corrosion leaves pits in the metal while oxidation (rust) actually takes up more space & looks like an added deposit.
Jim Watson
Member
The offending compound is potassium chloride, KCl, formed when the potassium chlorate, KClO3 reacts to oxidize the other materials in the priming compound. It isn't TABLE salt, but it is A salt, by chemistry standards. It is already chemically neutral, there is nothing there for ammonia to neutralize. Nothing to do but wash it out to keep it from absorbing moisture from atmospheric humidity and forming little puddles of salt water. There is what is known as a critical relative humidity required before a salt will absorb water, which is why you can find a neglected gun in good condition in desert areas.
I worked in fertilizer R&D where KCl is a common (read cheap) source of potassium; and it is ferociously corrosive, we used a lot of stainless steel equipment.
I worked in fertilizer R&D where KCl is a common (read cheap) source of potassium; and it is ferociously corrosive, we used a lot of stainless steel equipment.
SMLE
Member
Sunray
Member
"...the acid residue..." There's no acids. It's the salts in the priming compound, like Jim says. Plain, very hot, water(preferably boiling hot or close to it), no ammonia is required(it does nothing anyway), flushes the salts out. Use a funnel with a flexible neck. Then clean as per normal.
Corrosively primed ammo is more of a nuisance than a threat.
Corrosively primed ammo is more of a nuisance than a threat.
Prince Yamato
Member
I think when people hear "corrosive" they think that the minute they fire the ammo, sulfuric acid is going to instantly start dissolving the barrel.
Ian Sean
Member
Windex is handy...comes in a convenient spray bottle...so can soapy water (most soaps have a higher than neutral pH also). I am not bringing my Coleman stove to the range...so boiling water is out
Seriously, there is no harm with ammonia, it is a base (high pH) and will protect steel from corrosion to a degree especiallyif you can't properly clean right away.
If I couldn't clean my rifle for an hour or 2 and I had a choice of flushing a barrel with water at a neutral pH (7) and a mild ammonia solution with a pH of about 9-10, I will take ammonia every time. My boilers in the Power Plant are full of ammonia (inject a 19% ammonia solution, maintain a 9 to 10 pH) the boilers look like the day they were installed inside.
Added benefit, if you are experiencing copper fouling, ammonia will attack copper (and all yellow metals).
Seriously, there is no harm with ammonia, it is a base (high pH) and will protect steel from corrosion to a degree especiallyif you can't properly clean right away.
If I couldn't clean my rifle for an hour or 2 and I had a choice of flushing a barrel with water at a neutral pH (7) and a mild ammonia solution with a pH of about 9-10, I will take ammonia every time. My boilers in the Power Plant are full of ammonia (inject a 19% ammonia solution, maintain a 9 to 10 pH) the boilers look like the day they were installed inside.
Added benefit, if you are experiencing copper fouling, ammonia will attack copper (and all yellow metals).
bigjohnson
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2008
- Messages
- 174
I have a British Army funnel that was issued (1 per squad) during the 1930s. When I go to the range, I take the funnel and a 1-quart thermos filled with boiling water. When I finish shooting the corrosive ammo in my No1 Mklll, I take the bolt out, point the muzzle down, and use the funnel to slowly pour the hot water down the bore. The hot water dries in minutes, and the rifle is ready for a few patches of Hoppe's #9. All done. Been doing it that way for years, and my SMLE still has a mint bore.
ftierson
Member.
Soap in your hot water mostly helps by lowering the surface tension of the water and allowing it to penetrate better. This also helps to remove oils...
But the water removes the potassium salts...
Most copper cleaners use ammonia to dissolve the copper. For example, Shooter's Choice Copper Remover uses a 5% ammonia solution. However, the instructions also clearly warn you not to leave the ammonia solution in the bore for long:
"Allow solvent to remain in bore no longer than 5 to 10 minutes."
This is because the ammonia will also dissolve the steel. However, the 5% solutions remove copper pretty well without any great risk of bore damage if the instructions are followed.
However, concentrated ammonia solutions run in the 22% range, and you might want to avoid these for use in bore cleaning...
Forrest
But the water removes the potassium salts...
Most copper cleaners use ammonia to dissolve the copper. For example, Shooter's Choice Copper Remover uses a 5% ammonia solution. However, the instructions also clearly warn you not to leave the ammonia solution in the bore for long:
"Allow solvent to remain in bore no longer than 5 to 10 minutes."
This is because the ammonia will also dissolve the steel. However, the 5% solutions remove copper pretty well without any great risk of bore damage if the instructions are followed.
However, concentrated ammonia solutions run in the 22% range, and you might want to avoid these for use in bore cleaning...
Forrest
wnycollector
Member
I bought my 1st mil surplus ammo ~ 1990 (1960's chinese steel core 7.62x39). I shot THOUSANDS of rounds through both my SKS' and my mak-90 without a problem. I sprayed everything with windex before cleaning with hoppes.
Jim Watson
Member
Under the right (or wrong) conditions corrosion can start pretty fast. Old .22s from the early days of smokeless powder are seldom seen with good bores because the relatively large amount of primer in the rim with a relatively small powder charge to blow it out meant there was a LOT of salt left in the barrel and it could be rusting by the time you got home from squirrel hunting. Black powder had been less of a problem, the much less corrosive heavy fouling diluted the salts, and itself required wet cleaning.
I have a Browning trap gun that on some days can have red chambers by the time I can get home from the club. Certainly no corrosive primed shotshells these days, some people blame it on mysterious chemicals in plastic hulls, I figure it is just sweat on plastic hulls and no wax from paper shells to coat the steel. That and whatever alloy Browning was using at the time having no corrosion resistance at all.
GBExpat
Member
Nonsense. Red oxide of iron (rust, Fe2O3) corrodes the surface by taking up more space (until you remove it) ... leaving pits in the steel. OTOH, black oxide of iron (Fe3O4, used to "blue" firearms) does not up more space than that originally used by the iron atoms.
You probably live in a very humid area. I do. I cannot leave corrosive residue on the surface of metals without the risk of rust. I can recall pushing patches of GI bore cleaner (the good stuff, Mil C 372) down a barrel. I did not have time to boil hot water. I figured that would be enough.
Less than a week later I looked down the bore and saw rust!
Never had that problem when I have used hot soapy water to clean after shooting corrosive ammo.
researchdoc
Member
It is the Berdan primer
It is the type of salt in the primer.
A bottle of store brand window cleaner w/ ammonia.. or a bottle of ammonia watered down to a 10th will work fine. Just spray the bbl down and the chamber and bolt face... then swab dry. When you get home clean as normal.
It is the type of salt in the primer.
A bottle of store brand window cleaner w/ ammonia.. or a bottle of ammonia watered down to a 10th will work fine. Just spray the bbl down and the chamber and bolt face... then swab dry. When you get home clean as normal.
Jim Watson
Member
Has nothing to do with Berdan construction. There are chlorate/corrosive Boxer primers and non-corrosive Berdan primers. In fact, the Army once considered going to Berdan primers because they hold more mix and the early noncorrosive compounds were not very hot.
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