Novice gun cleaning question

[bugeater]

This may have been taked about before but bare with me I'm still new.

I know if you shoot corrosive ammo thrrough my rifles you need to clean them with 1. hot soapy water with ammonia. 2. windex in a pinch.

My questions are..1 What is corrosive about the ammo and if its salts or alkali (high PH) wouldn't an acid (low PH) based cleaner, like a citrius based cleaner, be better than just soap (neutral PH).

 

[ocabj]

It's corrosive salts in the primers.

Nothing beats plain old water. I use a 50/50 solution of ammonia and water.

 

[SMLE]

All that "corrosive" means it that there is salt left in the bore after firing. Salt is hydroscopic, so it attracts moisture and that leads to rust. The fouling by itself is not destructive. The best and simplest way to remove it is to disolve it with hot water. You do not need soap, ammonia or anything else for this. Go to an auto parts store and get an automatic transmission fluid funnel that will fit into the chamber of your rifle. You can also find British Mil-surp funnels for sale. As soon as possible after firing, run a couple of dry patches through the bore to remove any soft fouling, then pour several pints of boiling water through the bore from the breech. The heat will open up the microscopic fissures in the metal and allow the water to reach all the salt. It will also cause the bore to dry rapidly afterwards. You can then clean the bore with any regular bore cleaner such as Hoppe's or Ed's Red. If you live in a humid enviroment, oil the bore well and check the rifle for the next few days.

Ammonia is only good for removing metal fouling, it does NOTHING for the salt. Soap will help remove the soft fouling, but it too does nothing for the salt.

Water and oil is all the British army used and I have seen plenty of well used Lee Enfields with perfect bores.

 

[rust collector]

I don't think you want acidic cleaners in the bore. The reaction might heat things up and it would be difficult to balance the ph in any event. Acid is used to etch metal, so I'm keeping it away from my shootin irons.

Best fix for the corrosive salts which facilitate rusting and oxidation is to flush em away with plenty of water. Hot is good, hot and soapy better, don't forget to oil afterward. I don't think the ammonia makes a big difference, but some swear by it.

Really old ammo had mercuric priming, which was a whole different problem. Hg tends to amalgamate with other metals, so weakens the cartridge as well as poisons you in the process.

 

[P95Carry]

Back in my Army newbie days, early 60's ... we shot .303 MkIV's in compo's ... this was in UK. Cleaning stuff was what I later learned was sold as ''Parker Hale Black Powder Solvent'' A water based miscible suspension (sorta brown stuff) ... and it did the job well. I didn't know back then squat about corrosive anything!!

The primer compound most troublesome ... the one I usually regard as the classic ''corrosive'' is perchlorate. Very efficient and good longevity but - those chlorine ions play merry hell with steel.

Fortunately these ions are polarized - meaning they can be diluted with water. So indeed, hot soapy water does a great job. Even better tho is what I use now ... even use it cold too ... christened ''Panther Piss'' by 'Cornbread2' on another board long ago.

2 Parts Murphy's Oil Soap
3 Parts Iso propyl alcohol (''rubbing alcohol'')
3 Parts 3% Peroxide

I made up a gallon of this and am still on my first pint!!! Store in something like a yellow anti-freeze jug ... and keep a pint available for use in one of the empty peroxide bottles - (keep cool and outa direct light). It is a very fine BP cleaner/solvent and works just same for corrosive centerfire ammo residue.

Once used and patch comes out clean ... dry bore with patches until dry - and/or leave where there is some warmth, then go to usual bore scrub etc with #9 or whatever you normally use.

Does good for me with my Mausers, Hakim, Enfield etc.

 

[Feanaro]

What is corrosive about the ammo

As I understand it corrosive primers(or at least most of them) work like so. Potassium chlorate is used in corrosive primers as an oxidizer. That is, to provide oxygen to the chemical reaction. Once the reaction takes place(the primer is fired) that potassium chlorate becomes potassium chloride. In most salt substitutes this is the primary ingredient. Ever wonder why people put rice in salt shakers? If you get a little moisture in a salt shaker you will find out. It attracts it like a white light pulls in moths. So the salts attract moisture(And supposedly makes some kind of corrosive substance that does more damage than water alone. Never could get that confirmed.), it sticks, and a little while later you will find a sewer that is pretending to be the inside of your rifle.

And what, pray tell, will remove those evil little salts? Water. Hot water if possible. Then run some dry patches through, a little lube, and there you go.

 

[bugeater]

Thanks all!

 

[Houndawg]

I have a case of the old noxious smelling USGI bore cleaner. Perfect for desalting and cleaning at the same time. This is the stuff our guys used when they were still using corrosive ammo.

 

[Ash]

Besides, salts are not generally reactive to acids or bases as they already are the result of the mixing of an acid and a base. Salts are water-soluable, which is why the oil doesn't do anything to them. Hot water makes them dissolve quickly and out they go. Follow by regular cleaning and oil and that's all you do. Using ammonia doesn't hurt and indeed helps with fouling from the jackets, so ammonia and water makes a nice combo.

Ash

 

[Werewolf]

If one wanted to use ammonia to clean out copper fouling would just plain ole house hold ammonia like you can buy at the grocery storer work? I'm guessing it would need to be diluted? If so at what ratio ammonia to water.

I currently use Butch's Bore Shine to get the copper out of my barrels (and man does it smell of ammonia) but it's real expensive and if just ammonia and water would work...

 

[spacemanspiff]

windex works. doesnt have a horrible smell either.

also gives that bore a nice streak-free shine.

cleaning after shooting corrosive ammo doesnt have to take forever or require lots of preparation. a simple way is to have good bore snakes on hand to run through the bore right after shooting. gets rid of a lot of hte powder fouling.
while the barrel is still warm from shooting is a good time to run through some hoppes and windex if you have a few moments. i'd do a couple patches of hoppes and then plug the muzzle so you can pour the windex into it from the breech. let it sit for a couple minutes, 5 or 10, then plunge it with a brush (the nylon one works better for this than the bronze brush) to loosen up the grit.
unplug the muzzle (two wadded up patches work fine, its not an airtight seal but its good enough), and run dry patches through. then bore snake, then hoppes again. this time its to get copper fouling removed. run soaked patches through and let it sit for 5 minutes. dry patches should then come out green. repeat until dry patches come out white.


SMLE, you're probably right about water being the best to dissolve the salts, but say in my case, all i've ever used is hoppes and windex in my m48 (which i've shot the bejesus out of and only surplus corrisive ammo), and there has been no corrosion or pitting whatsoever. i think either water or windex work.

 

[SMLE]

Spiffy;
Ash's post gives the reason that water is best for the salts. I have seen bores cleaned with Hoppe's rust a few days later when the conditions were humid. It can be particularly bad if POF mil-surp ammo is used.

One advantage that Hoppe's DOES have, is that you can slather the bore with it at the range, and it will protect it until you get home and won't harm it like Sweet's or some of the more agressive copper solvents. Windex is water based, so if you leave it in TOO long, IT will cause rust.

Keeping the bore oiled to keep moisture away from the salt is the general military expedient.

 

[JA]

A acid solution will not do anything as the residue from the fired primers combines with the water in the air to form hydrochloric acid. Which reacts with the iron in the steel of the barrel to form iron oxdie(rust).
The easiest least messy soulution to corrosive ammo is to spray the barrel/bolt/inside the receiver with CLP.
http://www.break-free.com/
You can get Break-Free CLP in a pint pump spray bottle for $10 at Wal-mart in the sporting goods dept.
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/breakfree.htm

http://www.thegunzone.com/rust.html

Although the CLP doesn't disolve the corrosive residue it does take it into solution. Once you have used a bore brush on the barrel and a tooth brush on the other parts. Rinse it all out with a can of brake parts cleaner. It leaves no residue and saves running patch after patch through the bore.