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Could a Bolt Action Really be combat weapon compared with any semi-auto?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Nick_007, Jun 9, 2009.

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  1. Nick_007

    Nick_007 member

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    I was reading in Wikipedia about Mosin-Nagants and how the Russians had
    really high casualty rates with them compared with Turks (they had semi-autos) in the Russo-Turkish war. Not to mention from everything I've heard from talking to others, and given municipal gov'ts actions recently, banning pretty much everything that is semi-auto; leads me to believe a bolt gun could never be a formiddable combat weapon.

    If not how would a Remington semi auto or an SKS with a 5 round fare? I actually moved out of NY city and to the burbs and its so boring. I might move back but I just can't come to grips with the idea of compromising my freedom. But the idea of living near cute tattooed art chicks might be getting the better of me :confused:.

    It's really a hypothetical more than anything else; I doubt you can have a Mosin anyway. I'd probably have to get a Remington since it's for "sporting purposes". Or I guess I could bring it in and have a 5 rounder in my SKS. It would be pretty ez tio switch it or bubba it if the and when the balloon goes up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  2. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    You should consider moving to a more free place rather than trying to figure out how to tolerate one as bad as NYC. :)

    But that's up to you.

    As to your question, as far as NYC goes you're probably out of luck anyway. You're so outnumbered there it doesn't seem like you'd have much of a chance in any kind of upheaval.

    In a rural area I would think the bolt action would stand a chance but it would be tough in an urban environment unless you had LOTS of friends, which was kind of how the Russians managed to make it work.
     
  3. Big_E

    Big_E Member

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    If you use it correctly. U won't be able to go head on againsta militia or something that has semi-auto AR's/AK's/etc...

    Now if you waited patiently and ambushed and used guerilla tactics against an oppsoing force with one. Once the enemy is in retreat of what they can't see salvage the dropped semi-autos (or full autos) and then you are better equipped. It would also help if you had allies.
     
  4. Kind of Blued

    Kind of Blued Member

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    A bolt-action can be an incredibly effective weapon, possibly the IDEAL weapon depending upon circumstances.

    That's no reason to be ok with a tyrannical government saying that you can ONLY have a bolt-action though.
     
  5. gunsandreligion

    gunsandreligion Member

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    You cant own a lever or a pump:confused:
     
  6. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    A round fired from a bolt gun will kill someone just as dead as a round fired from a semi-auto or a select fire weapon.

    Still, a guy with a bolt gun is at a disadvantage in most real battlefield tactical situations. Bolt action sniper rifles are good, but from another perspective look at all the hoops that guys with those rifles have to jump through to be effective, and survivable, on a modern battlefield.
     
  7. Badger Arms

    Badger Arms Member

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    Anymore, a semi-auto can do everything a Bolt Gun can do. Something whiz-bang like an M14 tricked out or an AR-10-like beast. I'm waiting for the SCAR-H to come to a gun store near me. A semi-auto shines as a sniper weapon because the visual signature of the shot is a moment in time. The gun is ready to go again without having to manipulate the bolt and take the scope off target or otherwise hurt your aim.

    That said, bolt guns have the potential for greater accuracy. If you absolutely, positively have to kill them, the bolt gun will be your SECOND most effective method after a JDAM.

    Yes, bolt-action rifles are every bit as effective in combat as a semi-auto when given the proper backup. A rifle is part of a whole toolbag of weapons employed against the enemy. Bolt-action rifles are cheap and easy to operate. For the Russians, that's the reason they preferred it. It had NOTHING to do with their ability to produce autoloading rifles, but to equip a HUGE army with them was beyond their abilities at the time.
     
  8. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Well there's your first problem. The Russo-Turkish war was fought over a decade before the Mosin-Nagant rifle was created.

    Second, the high casualty rates of Russian and subsequent Red Army troops was related to their outdated mass formation tactics. The bolt action itself was not the problem, as witnessed in the Winter War where both sides had Mosin-Nagants.

    That said, in urban combat the troops of all sides found smaller weapons with less powerful cartridges and a higher rate of fire to be very advantageous. For other types of combat or open terrain fighting the bolt is every bit as relevant today as it was in 1900.
     
  9. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    A five round SKS or a five round Remmy, depends on the circumstances. I would probaly take the Remmy
     
  10. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    Why not something like a Marlin 336? A lever-action .30-30 would still be a formidable self-defense weapon, without running afoul of NYC laws.
     
  11. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Ever heard of the M24?...and there are scores of others that also have their place in todays military engagements. That said, even a poorly equipped, outnumbered, well trained, battle hardened military force can be effective. This has been proven on many occasions. The Battle of Thermopylae (Origins of the movie "300") is a prime example...the Greek force was outnumbered 7,400 (300 well trained Spartans) to 2,500,000 (or perhaps as many as 4 million). The Greeks had inferior gear and numbers, but many were very well trained and were superior tacticians. Greeks won...nuf said. :)
     
  12. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    Cosmo, you just taught me something new, and I considered myself a student of Imperial Russian History. Thanks for your insight.

    If it were up to me to equip an army, and I were limited to bolt actions or semi-autos to be issued as line weapons, I'd probably go with the semi-automatics.

    Can an individual with the right software and mindset inflict a lot of damage with a bolt action rifle? Heck yes, but your question isn't about the effectiveness of the bolt action rifle in the right hands, but it's use in the hands of a fighting force versus a comparable semi-auto.
     
  13. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    ^^^^^ That's a great point Maverick223!!!!! :)
     
  14. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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  15. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Russia and the Ottoman Turks were at war several times during the 18th and 19th century.

    The last conflict (1877-1878) was fought 14 years before the Mosin-Nagant was introduced.

    The beating that the Russians got in some battles (they ultimately won the war soundly crushing the crumbling Ottoman empire) was because they were equipped with single shot Berdan rifles while the Turks had a militarized version of the Winchester 1866 lever rifle....

    Because of the lessons learned during this last military confrontation, Tsarist Russia did speed up its infantry rifle replacement program that ultimately resulted in the adoption of the "Rifle of Great Victories (the Mosin Nagant)

    I'm sorry but as student of Imperial Russia you get an "F" for this...:D:D :neener::neener::evil:

    M1866 Turkish Contract Winchester (.44 Henry Rimfire)

    [​IMG]

    Berdan Rifle (Vintovka Berdana)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    The lever gun never made it really big as a combat firearm because of WW I-style trench warfare.

    It sure would have help the Brits in Africa, though. Worked for irregular Civil War soldiers, too. It was the M4 carbine of the 19th Century.:)
     
  17. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Those are the numbers claimed by Greek authors who weren't there at the battle, right? ;)

    They stalled the Persians for a couple days, but were overrun and annihilated. Keeping the Persians tied up for 48-72 hours really didn't do much to curtail their invasion of Greece.
     
  18. John Parker

    John Parker Member

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    Or because of its painfully slow reload time, unless you shoot one, load one and keep the magazine in reserve.
     
  19. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    They were still very badass (Spartans).:evil:

    But I'd rather be HIGHLY trained in a bolt rifle than meet "shown the ropes" around a semi.
     
  20. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Thanks. :)
    Well there was actually about half a dozen "battles of Thermopylae" in antiquity, and [in the earliest] it depends upon your definition of victory, they were annihilated but managed to hold off the overwhelming force.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
  21. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    That's what they did with bolt guns in WW I, so any potential advantage there was moot.

    Also, the levers they tried had box mags.

    This one is chambered in .30-06:

    [​IMG]
     
  22. sarduy

    sarduy Member

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    lets see...

    1000 bad guys with (fullauto/semiauto) against 50 well trained US Army/Marines snipers with M24/M40 in a 3 miles area... i favor the snipers. the bolt action is not a weapon to clear rooms or CQB, but is a deadly weapon system used in the right hands with the right distance...

    hehehe....
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2009
  23. P.B.Walsh

    P.B.Walsh Member

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    Dude, that's weird looking (post 21, box-fed lever in 30-06). :(
     
  24. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Dude, that's the bestest of the bestest lever gun IMO...wish I could find one in a caliber I liked. :(
     
  25. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    Either will get you killed against a governmental foe in roughly the same amount of time. Equiping for that extreme would go way beyond auto vs. bolt, and would have to include other considerations of what would be employed against you by a governmental body ; such as CS, night vision, body armor, Armored transport, mounted weapons, hand tossed munitions, silencers, full auto, Ammo, defensive positions, knowledge of combat tactics, communication, etc....OH, and an endles supply of well trained manpower. In other words, it isn't possible. "Bolt vs auto" kind of loses any meaning when the tank is in your living room w/ a 50mm cannon & a mounted, belt fed FA BMG.

    The solution is to buy what you enjoy shooting, and to make life choices in where you live that allow the free exercise of your passion. I would never consider living in Chicago, DC, NYC or California for this reason; regardless how good the money might be. If you are buying a rifle for fun or defense, then stick with what you enjoy and don't settle. I mowed down a great deal of cactus yesterday w/ 300+ rounds through my Yugo SKS. It was smoking hot, and I burned my hand on the barrel. It was very theraputic, so my vote would be auto.
     
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