Could F&F take gun control off the table?

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John Q. Pirate

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Given the scandal surrounding the whole Fast & Furious operation and increasing mainstream acknowledgment of its roots as a manufactured controversy to make the case for gun control, how many here feel that this administration's (or any in the near future) attempts at further 2A restrictions have lost what little chance of success they may have had?

I tend to think a second Obama term would have lost all credibility among the general public in pushing any type of gun control agenda in the wake of F&F (although I am not in any way suggesting we rest on our laurels and stop actively working to preserve/restore our rights).
 
In my opinion, no. F&F will not be proof enough to the general non-shooting public that all gun control is at best misguided and at worst part of an agenda to disarm the American public.
 
To those of us in the 2A ghetto it is a big deal. To the rest of the population it isn't.

I talk to folks about this and none of them believe that F&F was anything more than a botched ATF program to try to find the ring leaders running a gun smuggling program. It is embarrassing, but they don't see it as anything else.

Without a "smoking gun" documenting that it was anything more than a regional bungle of a law enforcement program (and few people care if some guns ended up being used in the cartel wars across the border) there won't be much interest.
 
hso said:
To those of us in the 2A ghetto it is a big deal. To the rest of the population it isn't.

I talk to folks about this and none of them believe that F&F was anything more than a botched ATF program to try to find the ring leaders running a gun smuggling program. It is embarrassing, but they don't see it as anything else.

Without a "smoking gun" documenting that it was anything more than a regional bungle of a law enforcement program (and few people care if some guns ended up being used in the cartel wars across the border) there won't be much interest.
Click to expand...
About the only folk who care anything more about it are those of us close to the border whose families are affected by the cartels.
 
When the people running this charade are finally caught up with, nothing will be done! Those in control will do just as they did 2 weeks ago, use executive privilege, Constitutional change around, lie out their backsides, and blow more smoke up the American people's backsides to do whatever they want! When Congress and both Houses are so timidly hiding out of sight, don't want anyone to know what they have done, and the one in charge running all over the world glad-handing all who'll listen to his blather, you think anyone of them has the balls to stand up and say they were responsible? They are all like The Sunday Comic section, a laugh.

God help us all.
 
And any documents that would be damaging will be destroyed before they're ever released or forced to be turned over. Its simply the way of Washington so no one should get their hopes up that any real justice comes out of this.
 
There was a nasty Firtune article about how it's all a political exercise to embarass the President prior to the election. As I read it, it was dripping with criticism of Arizona's "lax" gun laws. This could boomerang against the 2A if people agree woth the basic premise that gun ownership should be controlled, but by a more competent organization that the ATF. My guard's not coming down for some time........
 
Odds are that gun control laws won't come up in Congress; most of them know better. Our problems come from with the alphabet agencies with their junk science. Look at the other thread here about what OSHA is doing.
 
hso said:
To those of us in the 2A ghetto it is a big deal. To the rest of the population it isn't.

I talk to folks about this and none of them believe that F&F was anything more than a botched ATF program to try to find the ring leaders running a gun smuggling program. It is embarrassing, but they don't see it as anything else.

Without a "smoking gun" documenting that it was anything more than a regional bungle of a law enforcement program (and few people care if some guns ended up being used in the cartel wars across the border) there won't be much interest.
Click to expand...
It's all but impossible for this to reach the public, when virtually the entire media apparatus, with but a very few exceptions, are covering the backs of the criminal(s) who were running the operation. Until a certain politician claimed "executive privilege", two of those major media operations had never even mentioned F&F, or OGR, not even once!
 
Yep. Legislators know that gun control is political suicide. Future restrictions on legal gun ownership will come from the Courts, and/or Executive Order. The next President will be able to appoint two Supreme Court justices, and Heller or even the 2A could be amended.
 
In a way they have already controlled our guns. You can buy almost any gun you like but the price of ammo is ridiculous. We have seen ammo shortages in the past few years. I never thought of keeping more than the ammo I needed for the next month on hand until recently. Now I have so much ammo in reserve I am going to have to build a shed to keep it all in. I haven't even started hoarding full swing yet.
 
It might not stop either the Obama or Romney admin. from pushing for more gun control, but it would certainly keep them from effectively making the argument that "our lack of gun control causes violence in Mexico," which the anti-gunners were really pushing before the scandal broke. It certainly took a lot of the wind out of their sails.

It would have been quite a coup if they pulled it off though... just imagine, the ATF causes a problem, the anti-gun media and politicians drive the public into a furor over it, and the government responds by granting more power to the ATF! It makes you wonder how many times they pulled off stunts like that before, that didn't get discovered.
 
none of them believe that F&F was anything more than a botched ATF program to try to find the ring leaders running a gun smuggling program. It is embarrassing, but they don't see it as anything else.
Click to expand...

Why is that "embarrassing"? Thusfar, there hasn't actually been any actual evidence that it was anything BUT that.

Tons of speculation...lots of innuendo...lots of people reading into actions....and the only "smoking gun" that anyone can actually produce is a single email that talks about gathering evidence to try and force FFLs to report multiple rifle sales.

I don't think it's embarrassing at all if someone thinks that, as that's pretty much what the actual evidence is showing right now.
 
NO - the antis never give up.....

however, ...most of the really bad laws are being enacted at the state and local level and the NRA does not seem interested in legal challenges these days.... they are essentially a political action committe now.....

the NRA is seeking eric with-holder's head at the JD and this may yet ocurr.... time will tell...
 
I flamed my brother when he quoted F&F numbers, I provided a number of links that explained the lies and what happens

His response
'Oh' he really didn't care, made a remark about how messed up the government was... and that was it, I asked about the whole holder, violations of law and Constitution, he could care less, sad.
And this ain't nothing, if he's voted out, I'm pretty sure the Lame Duck session will be bad
a second term, THE ONLY hope, would be a non cooperative majority
 
The way the operation unfolded:

First, some agents lost track of some guns, which later turned up at a Mexican crime scene.

Then they did it again. And again. And again and again and again, for almost a year, until they had lost track of about 2,000 guns.

These agents, you see, are bumbling incompetents and keep botching things. Just can't figure out how to get this right.

Finally, Agent Terry was killed and the heroic Eric Holder noticed that some agents way down the chain of command were screwing up horribly, over and over again, and he put a stop to it.

See? A botched sting in which agents lost track of some guns! Who could question it?
 
No. I understand that the mandatory medical insurance act has a lot of GC stuff planned to roll out. Needs to be cancelled quick.
 
I suppose no one read the Fortune article that had 6 months of research and real reporting. The ATF has no official policy to intentionally allow the trafficking of guns. F&F is not an attempt on gun control. Why are we still talking about this when there are more credible things to discuss.
Click to expand...

Doom, you gotta be kidding, right?

I've been covering F&F for 18 months now. The Fortune piece was a smoke screen at best, published right before the contempt hearings to slam Republicans and 17 Democrats who voted to hold Holder accountable to the law he is supposed to enforce.

F&F started as bad policy, was used to promote the multiple reporting requirement in four southwest states, and was done in violation of U.S. and international law. And that's just for starters.

The cover-up is the real crime here. Read my stuff, Read Codrea's stuff. Read Vanderboegh's stuff, particularly this:

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/07/sipsey-street-exclusive-send-in-clown.html
 
+1000 ^^^^ I kept up on this on sipseystreet from the beginning. It's pretty bad when bloggers have to dig this stuff up. Even Fox was waaaaaay late getting up to speed with it. Kudos to Mike V., David C. , and others for dragging the rest kicking and screaming to bring this whole mess into the light of day. Everyone involved in this, no matter how high up, needs to spend the rest of thier lives making small rocks out of big ones over this.
 
MFDoom said:
I suppose no one read the Fortune article that had 6 months of research and real reporting. The ATF has no official policy to intentionally allow the trafficking of guns. F&F is not an attempt on gun control. Why are we still talking about this when there are more credible things to discuss.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
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Wow, that just shows how ignrant you are on this
really, really?

besides using a single source that is identified by whistle blowers as at best a hack administration mouth piece, um, NO, that's now how it happened, and the Congressional investigation has SWORN TESTIMONY (and we all know the news 1. is sworn to be the truth and only the truth, and 2. is NEVER one sided....)

that piece is nothing short of yellow journalism, not fit to be used as even butt wipe. You have guys who put over 20 year careers on the line over this to tell the truth of this mess, gun dealers who antagonized the ATF by telling how they were FORCED to sell guns, and a ATF political hack who's busy saying

"nothing to see here, move on, nothing to see"
gees, really? and you ate that story hook line and sinker
I got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
 
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