Couple of images

[igpoobah]

I think the choice of weapon is fine. In fact, it is perfect. Are we going to be so controlled by the anti's feeling of what an 'evil gun' is that we start to think of them the same way?

There's nothing wrong with training a youngster to use a weapon of that sort. They may save your life with it one day.

 

[yhtomit]

If what she's wearing is pornographic, then I must be truly depraved for not noticing it as other than what looks like comfortable, perfectly kid-appropriate clothing.

Made for the range, maybe not, but I bet a lot of kids at summer camp shoot .22s at least with similar outfits on.

But "pornographic"? Sheesh. That sounds like the projection that gets here so often (and aptly) pinned on anti-gun types. The girl is kid-cute, but that's a perfectly nice thing. She doesn't look uncomfortable with herself or immodest, seems rather like a frank, confident adolescent -- if the shorts were trimmed with lace and said "Hot stuff!" on the rear, I might think a lot differently (*that* would be a real show-stopper in a poster like this, needless to say).

I consider myself mostly pretty straight-laced -- I find a lot of clothing for little girls dishearteningly sexed-up -- how any parent could buy some of it for their kids is beyond me. This isn't like that, by any means.

timothy

 

[HiroProX]

Whoops

 

[Titan6]

Alphazulu6- You are pretty far off the installation. You need to take another look at right vs. privilege. Someone can lose a right be required to reach an age of majority but privilege is for a select few.

How do destroy a prejudice? One way is to educate people. Hating what a gun looks like is no different than hating people because of the color of their skin. You seem to have a lot of your own prejudices wrapped up in what you are saying which is true with most people who feel this way about guns. I find this very sad. I have run across a few officers like that in my day and still do not understand it.

Oleg makes the effort to educate people in a way that tries to bring people to their senses. If they are shocked in the process this may be needed.

 

[igpoobah]

If I were to look at that and think of porn, I would consider myself a pedophile.

 

[Alphazulu6]

Titan, Im off the reservation am I? I will make the words all caps so you can follow along. 100% this is the problem today with our Country and the people who bathe themselves in what they feel should be handed to them and not fought for. The day you think for one second that it is your RIGHT to own a gun is the day you lose your ability to own one. Owning a gun is a PRIVILEGE. It is a PRIVILEGE by those who are upstanding LAW ABIDING Citizens. Those who have felonies and other implications CANNOT have a firearm but they do still have the RIGHT to say free speech. See the difference? Dont kid yourself or anyone else Titan. There are lawmakers here in our Country that are outlawing firearms and citizens that are losing their so called RIGHTS.... For instance you can't even own a handgun in Chicago, shotguns are on the next General Assembly I believe? Is that a Right for those people who did not stand up for their constitutional ammendments? They are called ammendments for a reason, they can always be changed. California is petitioning for ammuntion restrictions and purchase to 50 rounds I believe? And there is a bill being drawn up by Congress as we speak to begin SN# all ammunition cartidges so that they can be traced to your home with restrictions on what you can and cannot own... Those that are neive will lose everything as we saw in 1994. And Liberals are making this happen all the time. Don't feed them nor give them the fuel they need to fight and win over our Constitutional "Rights".

Now for the attack portion of your argument about me holding prejudice? """Hating what a gun looks like is no different than hating people because of the color of their skin"""" This is rediculous if you are suggesting that I am prejudice because I dont care for a 4-H youth shooting poster carrying an assault rifle. I dont hate that firearm. Are you kidding me? I have been in the INFANTRY since 2002?!?! This whole comment makes absolutely no sense. We are talking about 4-H shooting sports which I have and am very much involved with.
That particular firearm is made for one reason, and I know how to use it very well as I did carry an MP-5 during our initial invasion into Baghdad when I had the pleasure of finding it on a dead Fedayeen fighter we had taken down late that fall. Do you understand the difference between 4-H youth shooting sports and a modified MP5? Yeah, if not I can assist you and send you a few links. No I am not an operator ... but I am 100% one of the most pro-active gun owners and competition shooters you will ever meet. Lets compare this apples to apples. A 4-H shooting competition does not involve service rifles or para-military firearms. Sorry if that seems to hold some prejudice with your values and way of life Titan.

 

[Aaryq]

Sheesh, Oleg. With everyone getting so fired up about your sweet posters, you might have to lock your own thread.

Flame warriors: Simmer down, take a deep breath, and take the high road.

 

[Caimlas]

Oleg,

I think I like these better than most, if not all, of your other work (the other 'shooting sports' ones I also enjoy a great deal) due to the message. Well done!

Not to be offensive, but it looks nearly pornographic to me...

If I were to look at that and think of porn, I would consider myself a pedophile.

Uh....

See, I can understand attire like that being common, and I can accept young girls wearing things like that out at the beach, and what have you, but there's something really wrong with the automatic assumption that it'd be pedophilia for a person to think that the images are "pornographic" (I'm guessing the first commenter meant something more akin to 'lewd' or maybe 'erotic', because these are certainly not without artistic merit and don't appear to intend the emphasis of anything sexual).

That said, I do think that the clothing she's wearing is a bit immodest for daily wear, despite the 'standard', especially for someone as young as she is. I thought she was just a youthful, older teenager (at least 16) myself due to the way she was dressed - the clothing is suggestive. There is no way in hell I'd let my daughter of 14 leave the house dressed like that...

 

[Flyboy]

Alphazulu,

With all respect, sir, I suggest you wander around this site a bit and see what the members hold to be the meaning of a "right." You'll find that a sizable portion of us believe that rights are intrinsic to existence ("endowed by their Creator"), and cannot be taken, only infringed. You'll even find a not-insignificant chunk of the membership who believes that felons--and, for a smaller portion, even violent felons--should be allowed their full rights once their sentences have been served.

There are lawmakers in this country who are infringing upon that right, yes. But that doesn't make it any less of a right--it merely represents an infringement. The right doesn't go away because somebody in a big building with a dome on top says so. The ability to exercise it may, but the right itself is inherent to existence. Saying that it's a privilege, not a right, means that you think American blacks had new rights created for them throughout the middle of the last century. I disagree; the rights were always there, there were simply restrictions levied against them. This may seem like an exercise in semantics, but it is really quite fundamental: it is the philosophy that forms the very basis of our country. As an infantryman, you took an oath to support and defend the Constitution; in addition to reviewing it, I would suggest you also peruse the Declaration of Independence, particularly the phrase I quoted earlier.

Owning a firearm may have been reduced to a privilege in the eyes of the State, but self-defense is a human right, and should never be thought of as anything less.

 

[Oleg Volk]

The audience is 4-H.

My audience is NOT 4-H -- they were listed as a statistic source only.

 

[Titan6]

Aaryq- At Ease Corporal - this is ocifer bidness.

That said this is Oleg's thread and site so he can do with it as he pleases. if he wants to take my post down everybody better read it quick.

Wherever do we begin? Last I checked it was called the Bill of Rights not the Bill of Privileges.

But what is in a name after all?

Well in this case everything.

--- 100% this is the problem today with our Country and the people who bathe themselves in what they feel should be handed to them and not fought for. The day you think for one second that it is your RIGHT to own a gun is the day you lose your ability to own one. Owning a gun is a PRIVILEGE. It is a PRIVILEGE by those who are upstanding LAW ABIDING Citizens. ---

Nope. There is absolutely no requirement for anyone to fight for a right. If someone's rights are being violated than it is up to the individual or a group to step up and fight for them. If they can not than their rights will continue to be violated. Guard jealously this freedom...


--- Those who have felonies and other implications CANNOT have a firearm but they do still have the RIGHT to say free speech.---

That isn't even true. Try telling a sex offender in Texas he has the right to have pronography. Convicts lose all kinds of rights depending upon where they are.


--- There are lawmakers here in our Country that are outlawing firearms and citizens that are losing their so called RIGHTS.... For instance you can't even own a handgun in Chicago, shotguns are on the next General Assembly I believe?---

That's nothing... You should check out DC gun laws. I mean really.

---Is that a Right for those people who did not stand up for their constitutional ammendments?---

You should check out current events some time. I suggest the DC Court of Appeals for some interesting reading on the subject. They agree with me and find you are wrong. The SCOTUS is next suffice it to say one of will get an answer we think is correct some day soon.



---They are called ammendments for a reason, they can always be changed.---

That is not why they are called ammendments. They are called ammendments because they ammendmended the Constitution. Not because they ammended themselves.

---California is petitioning for ammuntion restrictions and purchase to 50 rounds I believe?---

Could be. Given ammo prices these days that is likely all the people of California can afford anyway.

---And there is a bill being drawn up by Congress as we speak to begin SN# all ammunition cartidges so that they can be traced to your home ---

Okay, that one has been around for a while. Started as early as the 60s. If you find enough people to vote on that one let me know. I want to see them put S#s on all the .22rf in the country.

But hey why mess with the small stuff. Kucinich has introduced a bill to ban all handguns in the country. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Maybe this is the same stuff that gets brought up every year by the usual suspects.

---with restrictions on what you can and cannot own... Those that are neive will lose everything as we saw in 1994. ---

I didn't lose anything. If I did I would have got it back again ten years later.

---And Liberals are making this happen all the time.---

Republicans too! Just look at how they raped New Jersey and New York. Don't leave them out of this

---Don't feed them nor give them the fuel they need to fight and win over our Constitutional "Rights".---

See this is where we disagree. I think this is what you are doing by calling it a privilege.

---Now for the attack portion of your argument about me holding prejudice? """Hating what a gun looks like is no different than hating people because of the color of their skin"""" This is rediculous if you are suggesting that I am prejudice because I dont care for a 4-H youth shooting poster carrying an assault rifle. ---

I did not see the assault rifle in the picture. Perhaps Oleg can clarify. Is that an assault rifle?

---I dont hate that firearm. Are you kidding me? I have been in the INFANTRY since 2002?!?! This whole comment makes absolutely no sense. We are talking about 4-H shooting sports which I have and am very much involved with.
That particular firearm is made for one reason,---

And what is that reason? I would really like to know.

---and I know how to use it very well as I did carry an MP-5 during our initial invasion into Baghdad when I had the pleasure of finding it on a dead Fedayeen fighter we had taken down late that fall.---

I don't recall the invasion being in the fall. Perhaps I was mistaken.

---Do you understand the difference between 4-H youth shooting sports and a modified MP5?---

Why does it have to be 4H? There are lots of other programs for kids.

---Yeah, if not I can assist you and send you a few links. No I am not an operator ... ---

Well at least we can agree on that.

---but I am 100% one of the most pro-active gun owners ---

Even if we totally disagree on that.

---and competition shooters you will ever meet.

Or that. You have no idea who I know.

---Lets compare this apples to apples. A 4-H shooting competition does not involve service rifles or para-military firearms.---

So? what is your point?

---Sorry if that seems to hold some prejudice with your values and way of life Titan.---

Yep, you are prejudiced against my values and way of life and my rights

 

[Alphazulu6]

Flyboy, First of all I am not going to argue my point of Right to Bear arms. I have no need to. I understand it is a nerve with everyone on this post... including one of my own. With that said I am stating irrefutable facts about the status of OUR rights and privelges.

The right doesn't go away because somebody in a big building with a dome on top says so

..there is a big dome with legislators ... and they get paid by our tax dollars and yes they do infringe and tell you what you do and dont do. You think you have a right? Fought for it lately? B/C its not there anymore... want proof? Illinois, Ohio, California, Washington DC, Wisconsin... want more? Tell me to look at your post of the Declaration of Independance? HOW in the hell Flyboy did this turn into some type of racist statement? Do you think I am a white male in his 30s? Well guess what Im not... so you can take this comment of slander and attack and shove it up your A**** hole.

Saying that it's a privilege, not a right, means that you think American blacks had new rights created for them throughout the middle of the last century

It seems that alot of people enjoy using racism and prejudice as their arguement to prove me wrong that a 4-H poster should not be of a young, loosely dressed, 14 year old girl w/ a modified MP5... This is a 4-H shooting poster not a gun-slinging AK-47 magazine.
HAHA your insane Flyboy to think that I am racist and your personal attack on my views are not warranted. Go become a part of society, vote, and get a clue about what is really happening outside of your own TV set. The liberals are taking our "rights" whether or not you feel it is warranted or not. Become active in your local 4-H, NRA, Youth Shooting Sports program. Don't know where one is? go to www.nra.org and find out. Dont have one? Make one. Participate in those constructive activities that will keep the right to bear arms ... because if you have not put it together yet, it is all about the young generation that will determine whether or that "right" exists. God Bless.

 

[OpFlash]

I like them both, just the way they are!

Sometimes I think we're a little too nit picky, in the past me included. Good job Oleg!

 

[Alphazulu6]

Flyboy, First of all I am not going to argue my point of Right to Bear arms. I have no need to. I understand it is a nerve with everyone on this post... including one of my own. With that said I am stating irrefutable facts about the status of OUR rights and privelges.

The right doesn't go away because somebody in a big building with a dome on top says so

..there is a big dome with legislators ... and they get paid by our tax dollars and yes they do infringe and tell you what you do and dont do. You think you have a right? Fought for it lately? B/C its not there anymore... want proof? Illinois, Ohio, California, Washington DC, Wisconsin... want more? Tell me to look at your post of the Declaration of Independance? HOW in the hell Flyboy did this turn into some type of racist statement? Do you think I am a white male in his 30s? Well guess what Im not... so you can take this comment of slander and attack and shove it up your A****.

Saying that it's a privilege, not a right, means that you think American blacks had new rights created for them throughout the middle of the last century

It seems that alot of people enjoy using racism and prejudice as their arguement to prove me wrong that a 4-H poster should not be of a young, loosely dressed, 14 year old girl w/ a modified MP5... This is a 4-H shooting poster not a gun-slinging AK-47 magazine.
HAHA your insane Flyboy to think that I am racist and your personal attack on my views are not warranted. Go become a part of society, vote, and get a clue about what is really happening outside of your own TV set. The liberals are taking our "rights" whether or not you feel it is warranted or not. Become active in your local 4-H, NRA, Youth Shooting Sports program. Don't know where one is? go to www.nra.org and find out. Dont have one? Make one. Participate in those constructive activities that will keep the right to bear arms ... because if you have not put it together yet, it is all about the young generation that will determine whether or that "right" exists. God Bless.

PS: Oleg you have 4-H listed on the poster as the publication..... So yes it does directly involve the non-profit organization.

Titan: #1 yes Iraq September Time Frame we were still moving up North to Sammarra and securing the cities.... dont believe everything that CNN tells you about the war being over in April 2003 #2 Your views of truly believing your gun ownership is 100% a right... well fine that is your belief and I would die defending your right to believe what you will. Your statement

Last I checked it was called the Bill of Rights not the Bill of Privileges. But what is in a name after all?

We are and have been talking about the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution I believe? Yeah so in your words "yes it does mean everything". Not the sharpest tool in the shed with your snide remarks are you?
Please just know how close you and we all are to losing our rights to liberal democrates in the next Presidential term with that mindset you are promoting. God Bless.

 

[Titan6]

What Army did you say served in?

What was the source of your commission?

 

[Alphazulu6]

What Army did you say served in?

3rd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division (2002-2007). What Army did you serve in Titan6?

 

[savetheclaypigeons]

beautiful work Oleg.
Just a tidbit of info, if I'm not mistaken golf is actually the sport recording the most injuries

 

[Titan6]

I serve in the US Army. My oath of office does not allow me to believe as you do. That is why am curious about your commissioning source. Were you in 1-8 or 1-12?

 

[Radagast]

I am unfortunately at the age where, when I see a shapely teen walking down the street with her mother and I think "wow, she's hot!", I am not thinking of the daughter. Teenage girls are 'cute' or 'sweet' but not women in my eyes, so I've had to think about the arguments here to try and understand them.

FWIW, poster one works for me. if it was a young boy with a .22, most people, even the sort of anti (cultural distaste for firearms, rather than hoplophobia) would not object. A girl with a pistol is pushing the envelope a little more. Because it is holstered and she is not holding it, there is no threat in the picture. i feel it will make people think and go "Hmmmm... maybe..."

In fact, a 10-12 year old boy grinning with his first .22 is a good idea for a poster. Even that old cultural norm needs re-inforcing.

The second photo doesn't work for me, probably because it is a studio photo. It looks posed. Young girl with a machine gun is still young girl with a machine gun. Now if she had the gun slung in front of her and was holding a well shot target and grinning, then it would fit the quotation. Or posed at she is, but with a shooting bench and/or targets in the background. Currently the photo doesn't really fit the text. there needs to be more to relate the text to the photo.

Re her clothes, I'd want her to wear a high necked T shirt and enclosed shoes if shooting with me, but the target market isn't going to know that much about guns/shooting appropriated clothing, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Anyway, I'm not a photographer and I applaud booth your skill and your intent. I couldn't do what you do.

 

[Alphazulu6]

My commissioning Source? I do not know what this has to with your and my constitutional rights regarding the 2nd Amendment. But I guess if you really must know it was through ROTC. I feel that your oath of office and my oath of office would most certainly be the same whether West Point or OCS. I could dig it up if you really wanna compare em

1-12 was dissolved along time ago and became 2-9..... So "Fighting Eagles"

 

[Flyboy]

Alpha, a word of friendly advice: this is a friendly site. I'm not the owner, or a moderator, but I'd like to to think (and Oleg and the Mods can correct me if I'm wrong) that I've correctly interpreted the character of this fine forum as this: debate is welcome, even encouraged, but rudeness is not. At no time, sir, did I ever call you names, suggest profanity toward you, or any similar unseemly behavior.

Now, I'd like to tackle the racism charge first. No, sir, I was not calling you a racist. I was drawing a parallel for you. You said that the right to bear arms was not a right, but a privilege, because legislators have deemed it so. I invoked a comparison (a metaphor) between your claim, and another case in which a group of people experienced a change in legal status. The comparison is an attempt to show the similarity between a group of people who had infringements upon their rights lifted (American blacks in the 1960's), and another group currently experiencing infringing upon their rights (American gunowners). Your statement that rights are actually privileges if treated as such be legislators trivializes both the right to keep and bear arms, and the tremendous sacrifices and gains by American minorities.

Now, that addressed, let's look at some of your other assertions. You talk about gun rights in Ohio. Do you know who the Attorney General and Assistant Attorney General are? I do. Look at some of my previous posts; I've been personally involved with them in expanding recognition of gun rights (you'll note that I'm a resident of Oklahoma; I've still worked on Ohio). DC is another good example; do you know what's going on there? Do you know who is fighting out there, and how to support that fight? The lawyer at the front of that fight is a hero of mine, and a personal inspiration to me (and part of the reason I plan to go to law school).

As to the 4-H program: the poster only cites their data. If it were to cite FBI data, would you claim it was endorsed, supported by, or otherwise "directly involve" the FBI? Oleg draws from numerous sources, including a few who undoubtedly disapprove of his conclusions (for example, the Justice Department, particularly under President Clinton). Do you think his words "directly involve" them? Moving past the 4-H program (as Oleg has stated was his intention), there's more to shooting than formal target-shooting programs managed by non-profit organizations. Haven't you ever taken a tin can out to plink? It's fun, for Heaven's sake! The gun in the picture is a semi-auto, but I can't imagine how entertaining it would be to chase the thing down the road with a subgun (no, the MP5 is not an assault rifle), and I've played with a couple of full-auto guns (thank you again, Frank; give me a call if you're ever in OKC). The Second Amendment isn't about punching holes in paper at measured distances.

In short:

...get a clue about what is really happening outside of your own TV set.

You have no idea what I know, and would probably be stunned to find out. And it really doesn't matter. We're both on the same side here; relax, take a deep breath, and let's find a way to work together to improve our situation, rather than wasting our energies ripping at each others' throats.

 

[Alphazulu6]

Ok I exhausted this post and took it off subject and will take 100% responsibility for it. Oleg, you do good work with your photography. I just feel that you could improve content by adding a few things to that second photo. For the first photo maybe put a perp in the background or some type of antagonistic scenario... something to make me the viewer say "Heck yeah! I wanna give my 12 year old a loaded model 642!". Take care!

 

[Titan6]

It has to do with your education. I am trying to determine wether you are being wilfullly ignorant or just don't know. but look around here and maybe you will learn something. I don't mind you quoting me BTW but tou should put the rest in there.

 

[Aaryq]

I'm not a mod. I can't lock a thread. I DO know the rules. Let's not attack each other personally. I'm only a corporal so I don't know how you officers do things, but I thought you folks not only had to be officers but also gentlemen (Article 133). I'm only a lowly corporal but I have to advise you gentlemen to cool your jets and keep a high road approach to this.

I don't like going on the offensive too much, but: Until you can produce an image equal in quality to THR as Oleg has done (time and time again) keep quiet.

 

[Alphazulu6]

Yes Aaryq I agree and I believe that Titan6 agrees too as I think he was kidding with that Corporal remark haha. We have gone back and forth all day and in the words of Flyboy we could be doing more productive things as we are all on the same team (some of us Literally). This has been the longest session I have ever been involved with and just goes to show that a pictures worth a thousand words.. or two or three.