couple of technique questions

[Magowah]

Watched a DVD by Rob Pincus at Valhalla. Two questions ---why carry the magazine in a pouch with the ammo facing rearward, and I am a Weaver style shooter, so why does Rob repeatedly assert dont cross the thumbs?

Thanks!

 

[CountGlockula]

Is this a reloading question?

Welcome to the site.

I'm not sure what technique the guy on the DVD is showing, perhaps you can describe it more?

 

[BADUNAME13]

Projectile towards the beltbuckle is the way you should do it except with Ak mags.

Thumbs, you can, but competation shooter studies show that having them 'in line' w/ each other helps accuracy... IIRC

 

[ChristopherG]

Nomad's right on the mag position; projectiles toward the front.

The both-thumbs-up style (isosceles or modern/modified isosceles) has more or less replaced the weaver in competitive action-shooting circles (IDPA, IPSC, etc.) because all the folks who win such competitions use it. It is increasingly the standard of instruction in Law Enforcement and other kinds of handgun training. The Weaver was better for rapid controlled fire than what preceded it--which was using just one hand. The Isosceles is, in the opinion of most modern teachers and trainers, better than the Weaver (for handguns of moderate power levels).

 

[igor]

Not crossing the thumbs enables a slightly more positive weak hand angle, a bit more forward on the gun and with the thumb pointing very much at the target. This way the weak hand elbow tends to become positioned slightly more extended than the strong hand elbow. There is supposed to be no forward-backward tension in the two-hand grip. The strong hand is relaxed, gripping the gun maybe with 30% power, concentrating on trigger control. The weak hand is gripping about 70% power, concentrating on aiming the gun.

This technique seems to be the proverbial bees' knees nowadays and used and recommended by those who are there and doing that. Names of slightly varying versions and aspects of the technique include at least "modified isosceles", "turret technique" and "reverse chapman".

Even if the upper body and arms are, for whichever reason, held in a weaver-like position with the weak arm elbow more bent, not crossing the thumbs will be a more delicate technique and will help accuracy. In that position the weak hand thumb will end up pointing about 45 degs upwards instead of horizontally forward.

 

[Magowah]

He is using an isosceles stance. Arms and elbows extended and locked, and square to the target. I will try the uncrossed thumb position, but I dont think I can break the Weaver stance!
On the other part, it just seems natural in a combat situation to have the magazine postioned with the bullet rearwards, when taking the mag out of the pouch. Havent committed to either way really, just wanted some clarification since everyone seems to say the mag in the ouch should be with bullets facing belt buckle, but Pincus at Valhalla was saying opposite.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

On the other part, it just seems natural in a combat situation to have the magazine postioned with the bullet rearwards, when taking the mag out of the pouch.

When you grab the magazine with the weak hand, if the bullets are pointing rearward, they will be pointing toward you as you rotate your hand and arm for the reload -- opposite to the way you want them pointing.

 

[BADUNAME13]

I used to carry the mags 'backwards' like that but when I was at Gunsite they told me about using the index finger to 'index' the mag... to make reloads quicker and more positive.
I started to protest, but then shut up saying to myself: "Self, you are paying alot of money for this instruction... try it their way and then at then end of the week decide what is best."

...They were right.

I have been a lifelong Weaver fan, but once I started 'shooting and moving' I have seen how the weaver stance is not the best.
I'm working to 'untrain' myself on that aspect.
(I don't see how the fingers interfear with the weaver... perhaps I'm missing something.)

 

[Kor]

I also own the Shooting in Realistic Environments DVD, and the first thing you need to remember is that Rob Pincus says to NOT change to "bullets back" if you've spent a lot of time practicing reloads with "bullets forward" in your pouch - therefore, it is a relatively minor point in the grand scheme of things compared to maintaining and preserving your muscle memory for performing a slide-lock reload at speed in a critical situation.

Here's Rob Pincus' "bullets-back" reload explained, step-by-step:

- With bullets pointing backward in the mag pouch, the support hand comes back and down to acquire the magazine, palm facing forward; the index finger still indexes along the front edge of the magazine as with a "palm-backward, bullets-forward" reload.

- Upon withdrawing the magazine from the pouch with "bullets-back," the wrist remains locked as your elbow drops(i.e. your bent support arm pivots upward from the shoulder), bringing the top of the magazine to the pistol butt in a direct arc-ing motion; the pistol is brought back from full extension, into a "Compressed High Ready" position close to the sternum, for the reload.

- Insert magazine fully, chamber a round by fully retracting and releasing the slide, fire if necessary from either compressed high ready, extended strong-hand-only, or fully-extended two-handed Isosceles.

In the video, Rob Pincus says he prefers this "bullets-back" method because the support-side elbow does not flag itself out to the side as much as with the "bullets-front" method(i.e. less exposure from behind cover, less chance of hitting your elbow/funny-bone nerve in tight quarters), and because the movement is slightly more efficient(with "bullets-forward," you have to rotate/twist your wrist along the long axis of your forearm to get the magazine oriented properly to feed it into the magazine well).

 

[TonyB]

I saw the video too....I take what other people say and kind of "adapt" and find out what works best for ME.....I do a "modified" weaver most of the time,I also cross thumbs,and have bullets facing forward.I still pretty much hit what I aim at,and am Sharp shooter in IDPA in SSP and CDP(not revolver yet),so I think I'm doing OK.
I don't like when someone tells you,"it's this way only"..find what works best for you and stick w/ it and practice...alot.

 

[opd743]

I personally don't see how the grip can affect you stance, as Nomad stated. I shoot with both thumbs UNcrossed, from an Interview stance. It's something that I was shown when I went to the police academy. Kind of half way between a Weaver and Isosceles. That's how we were trained to stand when we were talking to people and that's why they started pushing us toward it on the range. Shooting from the Isosceles makes you a bigger target in their opinion and mine. I still find myself more comfortable with the Weaver, though the isosceles is the better of the two in close quarters.

I started shooting pistols when I was about 10 years old. I always shot thumbs crossed, my dad taught me to shoot and even though he shoots uncrossed he let me learn the way that was most comfortable to me. Last year(24 years old) I switched to uncrossed. At first I hated it, but after a few hundred rounds I started to love it. I still "feel" better with crossed, but my accuracy is far greater with uncrossed(firearms award at the academy)

As far as which way to carry your mags, I carry mine on my gun hand side, parralel to my belt, with the ammo facing down. When I grab a mag with my weak hand, when my elbow rotates to bring it up to the gun the ammo is facing forward.

Hope this helps.

 

[Magowah]

I guess I will stick with what works for me until it doesnt work anymore!

 

[Rob Pincus]

Hey guys.. just got back form a road trip and saw this thread.. Waht Kor posted covers why I use the bullets back... it is not wrong by any stretch and I now find it quite entertaining when I am on a range and someone tells me that my mags are backwards.... At any rate, it is mechanically more efficient , but somewhat controversial because it goes against dogma, there is no other legitimate reason not to try it if you are a new shooter.... if you've been carrying bullets front forever, there is no significant reason to change.


As for the thumbs uncrosssed (layered), by crossing your thumbs at any point, you are keeping one thumb from touching the gun (and most likely a part of that thumb's hand), which lowers the overall surface area that you have touching the gun to control recoil, etc.... it has nothing to do with stance.


Thanks for watching, and discussing, the DVDs, by the way....

-RJP

 

[Magowah]

Great DVD!!! Ive already made me a circle 8 3D range with some old tires! Thanks for taking the time to answer, Rob. Appreciate it. Got your emails too. One more question if you have time---it seemed like most of those guys were shooting "fullsize" handguns, on the DVD. Would you recommend someone, going thru your course, to shoot with a compact model if thats what they would be carrying. I just thought it funny they were all shooting big autos, when most people wont be carrying a full size.

 

[Rob Pincus]

Keep in mind that the majority of Valhalla students are armed professionals, not CCW holders, so the most of our students (including the ones in that video) are carrying full size guns.

I strongly recommend that people train with what they carry in a tactics or pistol handling class. The same goes for a Combat Focus Shooting class, unless you're carrying something that would make the class unbearable (1500+ rnds in 2 days out of a .25 Beretta tip-up, for example). For the most part, I think 95% of our students that actually carry guns go through training with the type of gun they intend to have handy in a defensive situation.

 

[Magowah]

Yep, Im just the CCW fellow, not an armed professional..Though I grew up with guns and have handled handguns for quite some time, Im not in law enforcement, the military, etc...an "armed professional." Generally I prefer to carry something in a subcompact model, like the M&P Compact, or the Bersa Thunder .380,for the sake of concealment, but I will carry something larger from time to time.

 

[Deanimator]

Thumbs, you can, but competation shooter studies show that having them 'in line' w/ each other helps accuracy... IIRC

Ayoob has a very lengthy treatment of this subject in the latest edition of "Combat Handgunnery". He says crossed thumbs work better for HIM.

The bottom line is that you have to see what works for YOU.

PS - the parallel thumbs thing is NOT recommended with a revolver. Try it without ammunition to see why!

 

[Magowah]

crossed thumbs work better for me - auto or revolver!

 

[Rob Pincus]

In the book, "Combat Focus Shooting" I talk about the difference between "easier" and "more efficient".. they are not always the same... especially if you've been practicing something for a long time.

Some things are worth re-training, some are not.

If a student is in one of my classes and shooting efficiently with crossed thumbs after years of practice, we may or may not advise that he change. If he is shooting inefficiently (in this case, bad recoil management, or pushing the gun off to the left, etc...), we would recommend he change regardless of whether or not he "felt better" initially with crossed thumbs in an effort to reach an ultimately higher skill level.