Court making me leave gun in car for jury duty, despite contradicting state law!

[JLStorm]

I was selected for jury duty and on the form I had to fill out was a note in bold which said something to the effect of "all dangerous weapons including guns, knives, etc, are prohibited in the court facility and must be left in your car"

My problem with this statement, is that it seems to conflict with this law:

§ 913. Possession of firearm or other dangerous weapon in court facility.
(a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he:

knowingly possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility or knowingly causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon to be present in a court facility; or
knowingly possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility with the intent that the firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime or knowingly causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon to be present in a court facility with the intent that the firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime.

(b) Grading.--

Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (3), an offense under subsection (a)(1) is a misdemeanor of the third degree.
An offense under subsection (a)(2) is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
An offense under subsection (a)(1) is a summary offense if the person was carrying a firearm under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) or 6109 (relating to licenses) and failed to check the firearm under subsection (e) prior to entering the court facility.

(c) Exceptions.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to:

The lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent or employee of the United States, the Commonwealth or a political subdivision who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of any violation of law.
The lawful performance of official duties by a court official.
The carrying of rifles and shotguns by instructors and participants in a course of instruction provided by the Pennsylvania Game Commission under 34 Pa.C.S. § 2704 (relating to eligibility for license).
Associations of veteran soldiers and their auxiliaries or members of organized armed forces of the United States or the Commonwealth, including reserve components, when engaged in the performance of ceremonial duties with county approval.
The carrying of a dangerous weapon or firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper by an attorney who seeks to employ the dangerous weapon or firearm as an exhibit or as a demonstration and who possesses written authorization from the court to bring the dangerous weapon or firearm into the court facility.

(d) Posting of notice.--Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each courthouse or other building containing a court facility and each court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a)(1) with respect to a court facility if the notice was not so posted at each public entrance to the courthouse or other building containing a court facility and at the court facility unless the person had actual notice of the provisions of subsection (a).

(e) Facilities for checking firearms or other dangerous weapons.--Each county shall make available at or within the building containing the court facility by July 1, 2002, lockers or similar facilities at no charge or cost for the temporary checking of firearms by persons carrying firearms under section 6106(b) or 6109 or for the checking of other dangerous weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law. Any individual checking a firearm, dangerous weapon or an item deemed to be a dangerous weapon at a court facility must be issued a receipt. Notice of the location of the facility shall be posted as required under subsection (d).

(f) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

I am not sure who to contact in the court which is in the Norristown municiple building, but I assume it wont be easy as the court itself seems to think that it is either above the law, or has found some way around this law. My problem really lies in the fact that its jury duty and its not optional, so its not as if I can tell them Im not going to come if they dont allow me to lock up my firearm, but there is no way I am leaving my gun in the car, and I dont appreciate them ignoring the state law either. I am also sure I will encounter resistance from the police who check your ID and require you to pass through metal detector at the court entrance. Any suggestions??

Anyone dealt this this type of thing in Pennsylvania, or another state with a similar law?

 

[03Shadowbob]

I'd say to keep the gun at home for a day or however long. I can see where you can make the argument but is it worth it? IMO it's not.

 

[deadin]

The way I read the regs you posted says that you might have a case against the court for not providing a lock-up as required in 913(e).
However, their failing to observe 913(e) does not relieve you of obeying 913(a), which basically says "no guns in the courthouse".

So, sue 'em.

 

[Trebor]

There is no one so much like God on the earth than a General on a battlefield or a Judge in his courtroom.

Be very careful how you fight this. Contempt of court charges are no fun.

 

[GRIZ22]

The only place foirbidden by law to carry is a school in my state. If I go to the courthouse for anything they want me to check in my weapon. Why make an issue of this?

If your courthouse does not have facilties to secure your weapon that's an issue to argue. Quoting the law and the instructions sent to you I would address it to the sheriff "in the interest of gun safety" that leaving it in your car is not a good idea and makes theft possible.

 

[History Prof]

The form handed to jurors may pre-date July 1, 2002. I would politely ask the court clerk (not the judge) if they have made the required facilities available and if not, provide a copy of the law and ask why not. In most places, court clerks are elected officials and responsible for the day-to-day management of the courthouse. The judge has nothing to do with that. Beyond that, I hate to say this, but I would back down. I agree with Trebor's comments on judges and contempt charges.

 

[mica]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the silly letter. I would contact the courthouse and see if, in fact, they do not have a place for firearms storage. It is possible it is just an old boiler plate letter that was never changed.

If they, in fact, do not have a place for firearms storage. Take them to court, they are in clear violation of the law. period! If there is storage, contact the originator of the letter and let them know they are violating the law.

 

[AZRickD]

I can see where you can make the argument but is it worth it? IMO it's not.

I made that argument at Maricopa County Superior Court and suggested that they obey the law. The lower guard and his deputy sheriff friend bluffed and said the lockers weren't for "civilians." Eventually they head of security apologized (and likely dressed down his subordinates). It took several more trips by me and others but eventually we "trained" them and now have a situation where the checking statute was routinely obeyed. We also had to re-write it (last year) to make it painfully obvious to the more leftwing municipalities.

Rick

 

[Jim March]

What state is this?

 

[kludge]

On the other hand if you show actual knowledge of the law you might be dismissed from jury duty.

 

[Car Knocker]

Jim,

Pennsylvania.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Don't be an ass to the judge... you never know when he might be deciding one of YOUR cases.

 

[thexrayboy]

Being the test case to make a point about the law can be very painful.

 

[Flyboy]

I'd say to keep the gun at home for a day or however long. I can see where you can make the argument but is it worth it? IMO it's not.

Yes. Heaven forfend that we demand the government follow its own laws.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
--Samuel Adams

Coward.

JLStorm, the cynic in me says that it's the "legal system;" the optimist and patriot in me says it's the "justice system." Go forth, and demand justice.

 

[WESTTX357]

Judges make the rules in there court rooms. I have been in court rooms in full police uniform and not allowed to carry my gun and in other court rooms in plain clothes just depends on the judge. Usually a call to the judges secretary can answer any questions.

 

[michaelbane]

Philadelphia Municipal Court

Here in Philadelphia, Municipal Court does provide weapons lockers. But the the President Judge is violating the law in a different way.

Municipal Court and the Private Complaint Unit of the District Attorney is located on three floors of a 13 story building. The rest of the building is private office space. But the security checkpoint is located in the lobby. According to the definition of "court facility" in § 913, that's not legal. The checkpoints have to be only on the individual floors.

I wrote to the President Judge alerting him to this fact, and he blew me off. Then I wrote to Pennsylvania's Judicial Conduct Board to file a complaint, and they blew me off. Then I wrote to the Pennsylvania attorney disciplinary commission to file a complaint (judges must be attorneys), and they blew me off. Finally, I wrote to my state representative asking him to impeach the judge. My state representative wrote to the judge, but the judge blew him off as well. :banghead:

 

[JLStorm]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here in Philadelphia, Municipal Court does provide weapons lockers. But the the President Judge is violating the law in a different way.

Municipal Court and the Private Complaint Unit of the District Attorney is located on three floors of a 13 story building. The rest of the building is private office space. But the security checkpoint is located in the lobby. According to the definition of "court facility" in § 913, that's not legal. The checkpoints have to be only on the individual floors.

I wrote to the President Judge alerting him to this fact, and he blew me off. Then I wrote to Pennsylvania's Judicial Conduct Board to file a complaint, and they blew me off. Then I wrote to the Pennsylvania attorney disciplinary commission to file a complaint (judges must be attorneys), and they blew me off. Finally, I wrote to my state representative asking him to impeach the judge. My state representative wrote to the judge, but the judge blew him off as well.

Great...well, I am out of state, but I will call the clerk of courts tomorrow for the Montgomery County courthouse and see what they say, hopefully they will be more reasonable than philadelphia. I bet if Philly wasnt so close to PRNJ you would have an easier time there!

 

[El Tejon]

JL, why not call the judge's office and ask? Be polite.

If they don't provide storage as your state's statute provides, contact the Sheriff (or whoever is in charge of the building) and ask why they don't. If they do not have an answer, time to bring some political heat.

 

[deadin]

I wrote to the President Judge alerting him to this fact, and he blew me off. Then I wrote to Pennsylvania's Judicial Conduct Board to file a complaint, and they blew me off. Then I wrote to the Pennsylvania attorney disciplinary commission to file a complaint (judges must be attorneys), and they blew me off. Finally, I wrote to my state representative asking him to impeach the judge. My state representative wrote to the judge, but the judge blew him off as well

I would say that the next step, if this really bothers you, would be to get a lawyer and file suit. You probably will have to stay with it through several appeals, or at least until you can get it out of the local courts system.

 

[michaelbane]

I would say that the next step, if this really bothers you, would be to get a lawyer and file suit. You probably will have to stay with it through several appeals, or at least until you can get it out of the local courts system.

It does really bother me, but I don't have the money to fight it. If I did have the money, I would fight it based on principle alone. I really have no need to go down to Philadelphia Municipal Court, so an argument could be made I'm not an "aggrieved party". But the judge shouldn't be doing what he's doing.

 

[Sunray]

Talk to the bailiff or jury wrangler. Or whoever you report to when you get there. Annoying a judge isn't a good idea.

 

[jeepmor]

You got jury duty, anyone can get out of jury duty. Just tell them you can't afford to take any time off, your a racist, have school, etc. I've ducked it several times and hope I never have to serve on a jury. My wife worked in the legal system for nearly 10 years, it's a quagmire of inefficiency to the umpteenth power IMO.

I would not press this issue because the .gov types that make the laws also enjoy making people who point out their fallacies miserable.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I bet there is less chance your gun will be stolen if you just leave it in your car, instead of letting the security agents at the courthouse secure it for you in a locker.

 

[wuchak]

If this were a new law I would tend to agree that it might just be out dated forms but in this case the law has been in place for 4 1/2 years. I'm sure that more than one person has pointed this out to them during that time. I agree with History Prof's approach except that if they do not have the required storage facility I would contact my State Senator so future jurors don't end up in the same situation.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I don't know how it is in Norristown, but in Delaware county, you simply flash your LTCF @ the metal detector, and the deputy will escort you to the storage area.

It's usually the sherriff's office that has the courthouse security detail, and the deputies usually know the drill.

Given that this is A) a PITA, and B) the walk from parking to the courthouse is all of 50 yards in plain view of about 50 well armed guys, I usually avail myself of my very own personal glovebox locker.


My guess is that the letter is more an attempt to facilitate rapid and glitch free flow of the juror pool into the building, and less of an attempt to bend citizen's prerogatives. The simple case is likely that most people, uninformed to these matters, don't realize that they're going to have to pass a metal detector, and gum up the works with the usual assortment of stuff they have on their person.