Cowboy Action Loads

[Normandy]

A friend has recently acquired a gen-1 Colt Frontier, circa 1878. He would like to shoot it a few times before displaying it in his collection. I must confess to ignorance of pre-1900 ammo.

So the question: Does current .44-40 Cowboy Action ammo have black powder propellant? Trying to help him locate some safe ammo to shoot in his Colt, and can't seem to find the specifics in the on-line ads.

Any Cowboy Action shooters here?

 

[MEHavey]

Unless it says black powder, it is a relatively fast
smokless pistol powder held to a safe 14-15,000 CUP
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Black-Hills-Cowboy-Pistol-Ammunition/740836.uts

(BTW: The above is one of the few times I've see BlackHill 44-40 offerred/in-stock)

and there is still BP-loaded ammunition:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/44_40_Black_Powder_Ammunition_it-158172.aspx?CAT=4438

.

 

[CraigC]

So-called cowboy ammo is loaded to even less pressure than standard factory ammo. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a blackpowder era antique that was in sound mechanical condition.

 

[Normandy]

Thanks guys. Really appreciated.

 

[DPris]

Speaking of the BH .44-40- When I used some in a test of the new Henry 1860 rifle, their cowboy lead load chronographed FASTER than Rem & Win jacketed standard velocity stuff.

The .44-40 (by at least those two makers) commercially available is not loaded very hot.
Denis

 

[BCRider]

I can also add in that from shooting 30gns of black powder in my replica cap and ball guns that .44-40 black powder loads are going to be some fun in a Colt.

I've shot a proper full load of black in .45Colt. And trust me, that was no "cowboy action" mouse burp load! ! ! ! It truly did feel like a full house .357Mag but with the typical black powder "push" instead of the smokeless style "smack".

If your buddy is a reloader for making ammo for his other guns then he would be able to make up fun but still light plinking loads for enjoying his Colt now and then which don't strain the gun even as much as the original black powder .44-40 loads did.

 

[MEHavey]

My `73 SAA 44-40 shooting a 200gr Lyman 427666 over 38gr/FFFg (compressed 0.2") was a
handfull. (in fact several folks came out of the range building to watch the balls of flame)

Nothing "Cowboy" about it.

Fully load up the cylinder pin/bushing with grease beforehand or fouling will lock things up
after a dozen rounds (or less)


.

 

[Normandy]

Thanks more and more. The old Colt was quite an investment, and it would be an awful shame to damage it after 153 years of care.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First of all, there is something you should know about that old Colt. If it was actually made in 1878, the cylinder and frame are made of iron, not steel.

Even though the Bessemer process for making inexpensive steel in large quantities had been patented in 1856, many firearms manufacturers continued to use Malleable Iron for gun parts for quite a few years. Colt Single Action Army frames and cylinders were made from high grade Malleable Iron starting with the first SAA in 1873 up to approximately Serial Number 96,000 in mid 1883. From SN 96,000 to about SN 180,000 (mid 1898), frames and cylinders were made from low/medium carbon steels. More uniform heat treating of these steels allowed Colt to finally factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless powder in 1900. Prior to 1900, the SAA was not factory warrantied for Smokeless powder.*

Around 1904 Colt began stamping a 'VP' for Verified Proof inside an inverted triangle on the front of the trigger guard. This marking means the gun has been proofed for Smokeless powder.

It is a little bit difficult to see, but this 1909 vintage Bisley Colt has the Verified Proof marking on the left front of the trigger guard.





Now don't get me wrong. Malleable Iron is not Pig Iron or Cast Iron. Because pig iron and cast iron are full of impurities, they are very brittle. They are strong in compression but weak in tension. And they cannot be heated and forged to shape. Malleable Iron is much purer than pig iron or cast iron. As the name implies, Malleable Iron or Wrought Iron can be heated and pounded into a new shape. But it is still Iron and is not as strong as steel.

The second thing you should know about that old Frontier Sixshooter is if the gun was actually made in 1878, that is the first year that Colt chambered the SAA for 44-40. So it is a pretty special gun. I'll bet it cost around $2000 - $3000 if it is in shootable condition. If you post the SN I would be happy to look up when it was made.

****************

I have heard for many years that modern factory ammunition for obsolete cartridges is purposely loaded down in pressure because there are still so many old guns in circulation. I have heard it for years, but I have never seen it printed on the side of a box of ammunition. 'This ammo is safe for use in antique guns in good condition.' Never seen that. More often there will be a disclaimer something to the effect of 'intended for use only in arms in good condition, originally chambered and designed for this cartridge'. I have a box of TEN-X 38 S&W Cowboy ammunition in front of me right now. It specifically says ' This ammunition is for use only in modern firearms that are designed and intended for firing with smokeless powder ammunition. Modern and Smokeless.

I have quite a few antique revolvers. Among them are a 2nd Model Russian and a 1st Model Schofield, both made in 1875. Both of these guns have iron frames and cylinders. I have other antique revolvers, but I would not dream of shooting these old iron framed guns with Smokeless ammo. I wouldn't even let a box of Smokeless ammo anywhere near these old guns. I follow Kuhnhausen's rule. If it was made before 1900, I do not shoot it with Smokeless ammo. Period.

Of course this is easy for me to say because I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40 and 44 Russian with Black Powder all the time. But if I had a few thousand dollars invested in an antique revolver, and I did not load Black Powder ammo, I would sure as heck find some rather than risk blowing up the cylinder of a fine old antique with Smokeless ammo.

*****************

My name is Driftwood and I am a Cowboy Action Shooter.

Let's talk about 'Cowboy Ammo for a moment. There are no official SAMMI guidelines defining 'cowboy ammo'. Defining velocity, and more importantly, pressure, is left up to the individual ammunition manufacturer. While many folks sneer at the 'Cowboy Ammo' that they see in videos on the internet, most of that stuff is handloaded stuff made up by the competitor. And it tends to be ridiculously light in recoil and pressure. Commercial Cowboy Ammo is not like that. No, it is not 'Ruger Only' stuff, but it ain't mousefarts either. I sure as heck would not trust an iron framed 1870s era antique to modern commercial 'Cowboy Ammo'.

Not this Cowboy.

Has it been fired with Smokeless ammo at some point over the years? Most likely yes. Would I? Absolutely not.

MEHavey: if your BP 44-40 ammo is locking up your revolver after a dozen rounds or less, you are doing something wrong. Most likely the wrong kind of bullet lube, or not enough BP compatible bullet lube. I can shoot my Colts with BP 45s all day long and they don't bind up.





* Source: The Colt Single Action Revolvers Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2, by Jerry Kuhnhausen. Page 71.

 

[MEHavey]

MEHavey: if your BP 44-40 ammo is locking up your revolver after a dozen rounds or less,
you are doing something wrong. Most likely the wrong kind of bullet lube, or not enough BP
compatible bullet lube. I can shoot my Colts with BP 45s all day long and they don't bind up.

I was using the same soft lube that I use on all my BP cartridge rifles: DLG.
It suprised me when it began to bind/lock up, but then that SmokeWagon is fairly tight, and I was shooting it "dry".

For what it's worth, I got the same velocity with the full-up/ball-of-flame/Wow~! 38gr/FFFg load as I did with
my standard 8.0gr/Unique load -- but the recoil w/ Unique was noticeably milder.

Being a glutten for punishment, though, I'll load up some more w/ 36gr/FFFg with lottsa DGL slicking up the
cylinder pin/bushing and take the pistola out again this weekend -- IF I can find/dig out the target
frame holes in the ground under yesterday's snow.


.

 

[StrawHat]

...I was using the same soft lube that I use on all my BP cartridge rifles: DLG...

MEHavey,

Not familiar with DLG? Can you provide more information?

Thank you.

Kevin

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I was waiting for Driftwood Johnson to post a reply.

If it were my gun, I would heed his advice.

One of our cowboy action shooters invited a friend to attend our local match. This fellow's father had given each of his adult sons a vintage revolver; our guest had a US marked Colt SAA in .45 Colt. It looked to be in very good condition. I understand that he'd had a gunsmith look it over and pronounce it shootable.

We have several shooters who use .45 Colt rifles and revolvers. Several offered ammo to the guest so that he could try out his revolver. One the more knowledgeable shooters recommended that he only shoot black powder cartridges, and offered some up. The guest was happy and his revolver ran as intended.

The right tool for the right job.

 

[MEHavey]

Not familiar with DLG?
Can you provide more info?

Would you believe... DGL ?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/689293/dgl-bullet-lube-12-oz-tub

It's a classic soft lube/comes in tubs along the lines of SPG that I pan lube for test batches (like today),
and actually have poured into my Lyman 450 lubrisizer for the big 45 rifles. Never fails..... **

Today I loaded up two-dozen 44-40's w/ Lyman's 200gr #098(30:1) over 36gr/3Fg compresed 1/8"
Fed LP primer/ DGL lube /crimped mid cleaning band at 1.592 OAL
I ALSO greased up the cylinder pin/bushing sleeve w/ the same DGL.

Ran fine for all four cylinder loads, and it was still spinning freely at stop,


** I could probably just use my Summer musket lube of 3:1 Crisco/beeswax -- but what the heck.

 

[StrawHat]

MEHavey,

I was hoping it was a home brew! I currently use a home brew of Olive oil and beeswax. Have used mineral oil and beeswax, etc. Always looking for a new one.

Kevin

 

[BigBore45]

the warnings above are good to know, i would hand load smokeless powder loads only at the bottom of the data where the PSI is around 9,000. That is an average PSI for black powder loads of the time of gun manufacture. The cowboy action from today on the shelves is loaded up to 14,000 PSI ( that is SAMMI SPEC) and is to much for that old revolver.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

It is not just the peak pressure. Modern Smokeless powders develop a sharper pressure spike than Black Powder does. The peak may be of the same amplitude, but the older BP peak was more spread out over time, lessening the shock to the steel, or iron in this case. When Colt first factory warrantied the SAA for Smokeless powder in 1900 it was with the old 'bulk' powders that were developed to have a pressure curve much like BP.

While it is possible to duplicate the pressure curve of Black Powder with some modern Smokeless powders, no commercial ammo is loaded with them.

That is why, no matter what the powder is, and how low the pressure, no Smokeless ammo of any kind comes anywhere near to any of my antique revolvers.

 

[MEHavey]

Olive oil and beeswax

That's [literally] better known as Bore Butter (just add a 1/4 tsp of oil of wintergreen
food flavoring from Chateau Giant's spice dept)

 

[StrawHat]

Howdy Again

It is not just the peak pressure. Modern Smokeless powders develop a sharper pressure spike than Black Powder does. The peak may be of the same amplitude, but the older BP peak was more spread out over time, lessening the shock to the steel, or iron in this case. When Colt first factory warrantied the SAA for Smokeless powder in 1900 it was with the old 'bulk' powders that were developed to have a pressure curve much like BP.

While it is possible to duplicate the pressure curve of Black Powder with some modern Smokeless powders, no commercial ammo is loaded with them.

That is why, no matter what the powder is, and how low the pressure, no Smokeless ammo of any kind comes anywhere near to any of my antique revolvers.

Good advice. Black powder produces a longer pressure curve and is "gentler" on the older firearms. I handload so I am not sure if BP loads are available over the counter but they are easy to make.

Kevin

 

[MEHavey]

You might want to look for some actual pressures curves associated with the "old" smokeless powders that made the transition from BP:



http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27410

Note that BP is itself fairly "spikey" when compared against that old standby, SR/IMR4759.
Note also that Trailboss is very spikey. (Danger! Will Robinson)
Also from the source:

"Blue Dot and 2400 give approximately the same pressure curve as black powder FOR THE SAME VELOCITY AS BLACK POWDER AND THE SAME BULLET AND BULLET WEIGHT."

and...

" I use only a narrow range of smokeless powders in the 1873 and 1876 that runs in burn rate between 2400 and 5744, with 5744 being at the slower end of the range."

SEE/FIND: Sherman Bell’s pressure testing published in The Double Gun Journal Summer 2002 "Finding Out for Myself, Part VI, Smokeless vs Black", p.19, and summarized in Volume 17: Issue 4, Winter 2006, p. 39

See also:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...gdon-s-response-to-Smokeless-in-Winchester-73

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks for the information. I have seen that data before. I would prefer to compare the performance of Black Powder to various Smokeless powders in 45 Colt or 44-40, rather than 45-70 data. A better apples to apples comparison. Until then, no Smokeless in any of my antique revolvers.

Rifles are a different story. They have more massive barrels with more metal around the chamber. I do not hesitate shooting my antique Winchesters with mild Smokeless 44-40 loads. But the chamber walls on an old Colt revolver chambered for 45 Colt or 44-40 are just too thin for me to risk it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Speer once built a single shot revolver "cylinder" with pressure tap.
They concluded that maximum pressure was reached before the bullet cleared the cylinder.
So the cylinder has got to stand the full brunt of the load. Progressive powder doesn't change that, unlike a Damascus shotgun with a lot of barrel taper meant for black.
But what is the chamber pressure for a revolver case full of black?

Then there is the question of frame stretching. One gunsmith said he had seen an uptick in stretched frames on topbreak revolvers when CASers got out their old guns and started shooting them with nitro. Some shooters "do it all the time with no problem." Like the guy who rechambered his .44 Russian to .44 Special.

 

[CraigC]

The cowboy action from today on the shelves is loaded up to 14,000 PSI ( that is SAMMI SPEC) and is to much for that old revolver.

People make that assumption but it's just not true. Even standard factory loads are not full pressure. Cowboy loads are even less, probably more like 9000-10,000psi. Which is equivalent to blackpowder pressures.

 

[Old Fuff]

While I do not recommend shooting pre-1900 Colt Single Action Army revolvers with any powder, because of the possibility of slag or seams in the steel that was used to make the cylinders, they're is an easy solution to this problem.

If you must shoot these over-a-century-old revolvers, have a new, modern cylinder fitted to the gun. Thereafter only shoot modest loads.

The cylinder can be fitted to the revolver without making any alterations to the gun itself, and the original cylinder can always be returned for display purposes.

Yes, this is expensive in some ways, but it is far, far better then taking the chance of damaging or destroying a valuable antique, both from a historical and financial perspective.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

People make that assumption but it's just not true. Even standard factory loads are not full pressure. Cowboy loads are even less, probably more like 9000-10,000psi. Which is equivalent to blackpowder pressures.

CraigC

I would like to know where you got your information about the pressures of Cowboy loads. As I have stated, there are no official SAAMI guides for 'Cowboy Ammo'. No information regarding either bullet weight, velocity, or pressure. Pressure of course being the most important.

The official SASS rules for ammo that is acceptable for cowboy action shooting is that velocity shall be no more than 1000 fps out of a revolver and no more than 1400 fps out of a rifle. That's it, no statements about bullet weights, and more importantly, no information about pressure.

I don't buy cowboy ammo anymore, I always load my own. But I had a couple of boxes laying around (door prizes from big matches). Ten-X 38 S&W, Black Hills 44 Russian and Black Hills 44-40. Nothing printed on the boxes regarding velocity or pressure. Just the warnings that the ammo is intended only for 'Modern Firearms that are designed and intended for firing Smokeless Powder ammunition'.

So I went to the Black Hills web sight and looked up their ballistics for their Cowboy ammo. Bullet weight and velocity were listed, no pressure data. Same thing at Ten-X. Bullet weight, OAL, Velocity out of a pistol, Power Factor out of a pistol, velocity out of a long gun, muzzle energy, Energy at 100 yards, and bullet drop at 100 yards were listed. No mention of pressure at all. Next I went to Winchester. Only bullet weight was listed, nothing about velocity or pressure. Next to MagTech, a well known maker of cowboy ammo. The only data listed was bullet weight, nothing about velocity or pressure. Then I went to Ultramax, another manufacturer of cowboy ammo. Bullet weight and velocity listed, no pressure data.

Then I went on line to the powder manufacturers. Alliant has a section about cowboy loads. Bullet weight and velocity only, nothing about pressure. Then to Hodgdon. Finally some pressure data. But no specific 'Cowboy Loads' section. By interpolation of bullet velocities that would be acceptable for CAS, and only using the starting data, I could come up with some pressure data, but it is in CUP, not PSI, and I don't have a good calculator to convert between the two.

Then I went to my reloading manuals. The only one that specifically calls out 'Cowboy Loads' is my Speer, 13th edition. Again, only bullet weight, minimum charge and maximum charge, and velocity. No information about pressure. Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook, 2nd Edition (the one I cut my reloading teeth on) no specific CAS recipes. As far as coming up with CAS loads from the standard loadings, again, no pressure data. Richard Lee: he only lists pressure for maximum loads, nothing for beginning loads which is where the CAS ammo should be. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 38-40 no pressure data, 44 Special, yes, there is pressure data, 44-40 no pressure data, 45 Colt no pressure data. Lyman 49th Edition, yes there is pressure data that can be coupled with ammo that meets CAS requirements, but no official Cowboy Ammo loads. And both of these Lyman manuals only list pressure in CUP, not PSI.

So, not to dump on you, because I know you are a knowledgeable shooter, but where did you come up with the 9000-10000 psi figure?

Regarding pressure printed on boxes of manufactured ammo, I was just trolling with that. No manufacturer is going to print the pressure data on their boxes. That is private information that is the intellectual property of the company. They are not going to print it for liability reasons.

Bottom line, there is very little actual pressure data available for 'Cowboy Ammo, either manufactured or hand loaded. Without having a clue about pressure, I do not recommend shooting such ammo in antique revolvers.

 

[Jim Watson]

I figure factory "Cowboy Loads" might be like promotional shotgun shells.
They are light and cheap, but one way to stay cheap is to use a small charge of a fast burning powder. So peak pressure might be well on up there.


As to "black powder only" era guns, I have seen it said that the reason the original .45-40-250 SAA load was reduced was because guns were failing proof with burst or bulged cylinders. The other theory was that it was to spare the tender wrists of cavalrymen of excessive recoil. Riight.