Cowboy Action Pistol
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MAX100
Member
Ruger Vaqueros are the best because they are trouble free and will last a lifetime and more. If a part wears out, which they rarely ever do, the factory replacements parts are drop in. They are easy to take apart and work on. Action job is easy to do yourself. None of this is true with Colt SA and replicas. The cost of a pair of Vaqueros will run around $950 now because Ruger had a $15 per gun price increase for the new year. A set of quality Colt Copies will cost around $1200 or more.
Also take a look at the EMF 1892 rifles and their 1878 hammer coach guns. Both are excellent and low cost compared to others.
The 1866 or the 1873 rifles will not handle hot loads. You can only shoot cowboy loads in them. They look nice but not very durable and are costly. They are costly to have work done on them also.
The EMF 1892 will need an action job to be competition ready.
GC
Also take a look at the EMF 1892 rifles and their 1878 hammer coach guns. Both are excellent and low cost compared to others.
The 1866 or the 1873 rifles will not handle hot loads. You can only shoot cowboy loads in them. They look nice but not very durable and are costly. They are costly to have work done on them also.
The EMF 1892 will need an action job to be competition ready.
GC
Hawk
Member
You can try here as well:
http://www.sassnet.com/forums/
I didn't find much in the way of consensus.
http://www.sassnet.com/forums/
I didn't find much in the way of consensus.
Yes and no. They won't handle the "Ruger & T/C only" loads but anything commercially made is fine. The guns must meet SAAMI spec levels.
As for the revolvers, I too prefer rugers. I also agree with the sugestion of asking over on Sassnet.com Figure your budget and then look at what's available within that budget. from those makes/models, choose.
theNoid
Member
They had mentioned on Guns and Ammo TV the other night that the US Firearms replicas were the winningest wheelies in cowboy action shooting. I have heard in the past that the Uberti replicas were the most commonly used. As for the shotguns, in the sXs category anyhow, the Stoeger coach guns are the most common. This is all heresay as I may not be remembering correctly, that and things may have changed in the last 6mnths to a year.
The Rugers are great wheelies and will probably last the longest, but some argue they are not true "cowboy" guns. I don't care what some think or may say, I love shooting my bud's Vaquero and will own at least one in the future.
Noidster
The Rugers are great wheelies and will probably last the longest, but some argue they are not true "cowboy" guns. I don't care what some think or may say, I love shooting my bud's Vaquero and will own at least one in the future.
Noidster
MAX100
Member
Trust me save yourself some money and headaches, go with the Vaqueros.
Several distributors have the 1873 rifles chambered in the more modern calibers like the .357 magnum. Since the toggle system design of the 1873s is not a very strong system, with a very slim bolt... that chambering surprises me. For a design that was made to take 16,000 psi (to a top load of 23,000 psi in modern steel)... the 35,000 psi of today’s commercial 357 loads is way over the stress points of the design. And some commercial ammo is still loaded to the original 357 pressure levels of 45,000+ psi.
Most of the reloading books call for top loads in pressure around 16,000 psi for well made and tight 73s. With the modern steel 1873 action and smaller head size of the .357 cartridge, I figure 20,000 to 23,000 psi isn’t going to hurt the rifle. I have shot +P 38 Special commercial ammo out of one without problems, and that was rated at 23,000+ psi. So I believe extended use of 23,000 psi or below will be fine. If I want true 357 mag rifle velocities, I have Winchester 1894 and Legacy 1892 designed lever rifles that can take top .357 magnum pressures. No sense hurting a fine 1873 rifle.
GC
Several distributors have the 1873 rifles chambered in the more modern calibers like the .357 magnum. Since the toggle system design of the 1873s is not a very strong system, with a very slim bolt... that chambering surprises me. For a design that was made to take 16,000 psi (to a top load of 23,000 psi in modern steel)... the 35,000 psi of today’s commercial 357 loads is way over the stress points of the design. And some commercial ammo is still loaded to the original 357 pressure levels of 45,000+ psi.
Most of the reloading books call for top loads in pressure around 16,000 psi for well made and tight 73s. With the modern steel 1873 action and smaller head size of the .357 cartridge, I figure 20,000 to 23,000 psi isn’t going to hurt the rifle. I have shot +P 38 Special commercial ammo out of one without problems, and that was rated at 23,000+ psi. So I believe extended use of 23,000 psi or below will be fine. If I want true 357 mag rifle velocities, I have Winchester 1894 and Legacy 1892 designed lever rifles that can take top .357 magnum pressures. No sense hurting a fine 1873 rifle.
GC
Jim Watson
Member
SASS is so big now, it is hard to generalize.
There are two classes of sixguns: Rugers and Colts + copies. Either can be a winner.
There are several choices in rifles. I think a well honed or worn in '73 is the slickest and it is amply strong and durable for the job. Marlins ain't bad. Repro 1892s and Winchester 94s in pistol calibers kind of trail the pack.
The Stoeger is the standard cheap double, but the hotshots use '97 Winchester pumps or Communist Chinese ripoffs therof. Dam' the Wild Bunch movie for pushing a pumpgun into western tradition.
There are two classes of sixguns: Rugers and Colts + copies. Either can be a winner.
There are several choices in rifles. I think a well honed or worn in '73 is the slickest and it is amply strong and durable for the job. Marlins ain't bad. Repro 1892s and Winchester 94s in pistol calibers kind of trail the pack.
The Stoeger is the standard cheap double, but the hotshots use '97 Winchester pumps or Communist Chinese ripoffs therof. Dam' the Wild Bunch movie for pushing a pumpgun into western tradition.
MAX100
Member
The 92s trail the pack because they allow short stroke kits on the 73s. That shouldn't allowed in when others that are using basically stock rifles. I don't think short stroke kits were around in the 1800s. The 92 with a good action job is smooth as butter. I know I work on them.
GC
GC
tinygnat219
Member
Ok,
Here's a quick breakdown:
Ruger: Good, quality inexpensive Revolvers that are built like Tanks. The Blackhawks, and Vaqueros are damn nice guns.
Taurus: Hit and miss, nice looking, but finicky regarding reliability. These are like a combination of the old Colts and Rugers. Also cheapest in prices and quality.
USFA: Out "Colts" Colt. NICE guns, but spendy.
Uberti, Beretta, Cimarron: All the same guns, but they have some of the oddballs that are out there. Haven't had much trouble or experience with them.
Marlin rifles: Great rifles, but watch out for OAL in the .357 rifles. Also bring Loctite and Screwdrivers to matches. The screws sometimes work their way loose in prolonged firing.
Puma, EMF, Rossi: Nice rifles, no complaints.
Winchester rifles: NICE in the original configurations. Newer ones, I don't know much about.
Stoeger Shotgun: Best deal going in CAS, Nice reliable SXS shotguns.
Winchester 1897 shotguns.
Please, these are guns for gamers, nothing more. The Wild West was pretty much over when these pump actions came around.
Here's a quick breakdown:
Ruger: Good, quality inexpensive Revolvers that are built like Tanks. The Blackhawks, and Vaqueros are damn nice guns.
Taurus: Hit and miss, nice looking, but finicky regarding reliability. These are like a combination of the old Colts and Rugers. Also cheapest in prices and quality.
USFA: Out "Colts" Colt. NICE guns, but spendy.
Uberti, Beretta, Cimarron: All the same guns, but they have some of the oddballs that are out there. Haven't had much trouble or experience with them.
Marlin rifles: Great rifles, but watch out for OAL in the .357 rifles. Also bring Loctite and Screwdrivers to matches. The screws sometimes work their way loose in prolonged firing.
Puma, EMF, Rossi: Nice rifles, no complaints.
Winchester rifles: NICE in the original configurations. Newer ones, I don't know much about.
Stoeger Shotgun: Best deal going in CAS, Nice reliable SXS shotguns.
Winchester 1897 shotguns.
Please, these are guns for gamers, nothing more. The Wild West was pretty much over when these pump actions came around.spiroxlii
Member
I own an Uberti 1873 Cattleman Birdshead. It's basically a Colt SAA (Peacemaker) clone chambered for .45LC, but it has birds head grips, which are historically wrong for a Colt SAA (Colt did have some guns with birds head grips at the time, but not the SAA). You can get one with historically correct grips if you prefer.
My impression of the Uberti is pretty good, though I haven't handled many others. Fit and finish are beautiful for the price. Timing is good. Accuracy with Atlanta Arms & Ammo .45LC is good at 25 yards.
The drawback of the Uberti and other faithful Colt SAA clones is that they use leaf springs instead of coil springs. A Ruger looks like a cowboy gun, but I think they use coil springs, which are less prone to breaking. On the other hand, even though Uberti uses leaf springs and an 1870s design, they're not using 1870s steel. The metal should be better on an Uberti than it was on an 1873 Colt.
My impression of the Uberti is pretty good, though I haven't handled many others. Fit and finish are beautiful for the price. Timing is good. Accuracy with Atlanta Arms & Ammo .45LC is good at 25 yards.
The drawback of the Uberti and other faithful Colt SAA clones is that they use leaf springs instead of coil springs. A Ruger looks like a cowboy gun, but I think they use coil springs, which are less prone to breaking. On the other hand, even though Uberti uses leaf springs and an 1870s design, they're not using 1870s steel. The metal should be better on an Uberti than it was on an 1873 Colt.
Jim March
Member
Let's also recall that the Ruger Vaquero (aka "Old Vaquero", now discontinued) and the "New Vaquero" (current production) are two separate beasties.
The "Old Vaq" was built on a 44Mag-class frame, and is hence "oversize". Hell-for-stout of course.
The "New Vaq" is smaller, similar in size to the Colt SAA, USFA, etc.
Much of the "Rugers are clunky" rep comes from the Old Vaq and doesn't apply to the New, mostly. Average quality control and out-of-the-box accuracy are actually higher on the New - better production methods. Damned good guns.
Also, the NewVaq fixes a long-time Ruger glitch where the cylinder bores didn't line up with the loading gate on each "click" of cylinder rotation.
All post-1973 Rugers have a neat feature where the reloading drill is different than Colts. You reload with the hammer down, as throwing open the loading gate unlatches the cylinder. Going through the whole reload cycle, you touch the hammer once less with the Ruger system. It's not quite "period correct" but it's not half bad.
---
Another gun not discussed so far is the Beretta Stampede series. Beretta bought Uberti and ordered a line under their own name with two specs: the best quality Uberti could crank out, and a transfer-bar "true safety" good for six-up safe carry just like a Ruger. I think the safety makes sense, personally. The Taurus Gaucho also has a transfer bar BUT quality control is beyond merely "spotty"...
The "Old Vaq" was built on a 44Mag-class frame, and is hence "oversize". Hell-for-stout of course.
The "New Vaq" is smaller, similar in size to the Colt SAA, USFA, etc.
Much of the "Rugers are clunky" rep comes from the Old Vaq and doesn't apply to the New, mostly. Average quality control and out-of-the-box accuracy are actually higher on the New - better production methods. Damned good guns.
Also, the NewVaq fixes a long-time Ruger glitch where the cylinder bores didn't line up with the loading gate on each "click" of cylinder rotation.
All post-1973 Rugers have a neat feature where the reloading drill is different than Colts. You reload with the hammer down, as throwing open the loading gate unlatches the cylinder. Going through the whole reload cycle, you touch the hammer once less with the Ruger system. It's not quite "period correct" but it's not half bad.
---
Another gun not discussed so far is the Beretta Stampede series. Beretta bought Uberti and ordered a line under their own name with two specs: the best quality Uberti could crank out, and a transfer-bar "true safety" good for six-up safe carry just like a Ruger. I think the safety makes sense, personally. The Taurus Gaucho also has a transfer bar BUT quality control is beyond merely "spotty"...
peacemaker45
Member
You planning to be competitive, or just goof off?
In pistols, for budget friendly performance, your best bet is either the rugers, or the USFA Rodeos. The various Italian clones are also popular, but aren't quite as durable as the aforementioned. Any of them will need an action job before being competition ready.
In rifles, the shortstroked toggle link guns ('66s, and '73s) are the dominant force, competitively speaking. The only trouble is that they are largely specialist guns. Smooth, but not all that strong. Not exactly hunting powerhouses. The Marlins and '92s are next. Stronger than the toggle links, but not so smooth, nor so reliable. The marlin especially is prone to jams at high speeds. The Winchester '94 in pistol caliber is an abomination, more suited to duty as a doorstop than anything else. The various pump guns can be fast, but I've only seen one that works with anything approaching reliability.
As far as shotguns go, the basic double is the Stoeger Coach Gun. Relatively cheap, available, and more effective than the old American guns, because the locking lug is underneath the bbl assembly, rather than the Greener style lug between the bbls. Some folks also cut down SKBs, but I'm not sure why. Single trigger is likely part of it, but the double trigger arrangement is more reliable, and can be faster. For hammer guns, the TTN copy of the '78 Colt design is well thought of. Then there's all the static surrounding '97s. They tend to have ejection troubles, and other issues. A competitor using a '97 is well advised to have three of them, one to use, one as backup, and one in the shop, at any given time. Some think that they're faster than a double, but that perception is changing, as more and more people are getting fed up with breaking '97s, and going to doubles. Just as fast, and a lot more reliable.
My setup, for what it's worth, is a pair of Great Western IIs, made by Pietta, action work by Lassiter, a '66 Carbine from Navy Arms, shortstroked by Cody Conagher, and a Stoeger Coach Supreme, action job by Coyote Cap. If I ever kill the GWIIs, I'll likely go to USFAs.
~~~Mat
In pistols, for budget friendly performance, your best bet is either the rugers, or the USFA Rodeos. The various Italian clones are also popular, but aren't quite as durable as the aforementioned. Any of them will need an action job before being competition ready.
In rifles, the shortstroked toggle link guns ('66s, and '73s) are the dominant force, competitively speaking. The only trouble is that they are largely specialist guns. Smooth, but not all that strong. Not exactly hunting powerhouses. The Marlins and '92s are next. Stronger than the toggle links, but not so smooth, nor so reliable. The marlin especially is prone to jams at high speeds. The Winchester '94 in pistol caliber is an abomination, more suited to duty as a doorstop than anything else. The various pump guns can be fast, but I've only seen one that works with anything approaching reliability.
As far as shotguns go, the basic double is the Stoeger Coach Gun. Relatively cheap, available, and more effective than the old American guns, because the locking lug is underneath the bbl assembly, rather than the Greener style lug between the bbls. Some folks also cut down SKBs, but I'm not sure why. Single trigger is likely part of it, but the double trigger arrangement is more reliable, and can be faster. For hammer guns, the TTN copy of the '78 Colt design is well thought of. Then there's all the static surrounding '97s. They tend to have ejection troubles, and other issues. A competitor using a '97 is well advised to have three of them, one to use, one as backup, and one in the shop, at any given time. Some think that they're faster than a double, but that perception is changing, as more and more people are getting fed up with breaking '97s, and going to doubles. Just as fast, and a lot more reliable.
My setup, for what it's worth, is a pair of Great Western IIs, made by Pietta, action work by Lassiter, a '66 Carbine from Navy Arms, shortstroked by Cody Conagher, and a Stoeger Coach Supreme, action job by Coyote Cap. If I ever kill the GWIIs, I'll likely go to USFAs.
~~~Mat
Dravur
Member
my 2 cents.
I don't mind the Vacqueros, but I use AWA Peacekeepers.
I love the AWA guns as mine have been flawlwess, none needing a trigger job. Several members have commented on how the triggers break like glass and are VERY surprised that these were factory guns. I have several and pick them up when I see them.
I use an Uberti 1873 as I have a fondness for the design and I got mine with the long octagonal barrel. Again, I shoot all .45 colt and load my own to Cowboy specs, so it is a dream to shoot. I love the way it looks and I honestly dont think I have ever missed a rifle target with it.
I use 2 Shotties. The first is the Win Mod 97 pump, It is great for those times you are just standing around pumping pellets. Hold it to your shoulder and load with the trigger hand.
The other is my Stoeger Uplander with 24" barrel. Not a Coach Gun, but seems to put more pellets on target at longer ranges. I really love it for move and shoot events. I polished the innards and it runs like a dream.
I don't mind the Vacqueros, but I use AWA Peacekeepers.
I love the AWA guns as mine have been flawlwess, none needing a trigger job. Several members have commented on how the triggers break like glass and are VERY surprised that these were factory guns. I have several and pick them up when I see them.
I use an Uberti 1873 as I have a fondness for the design and I got mine with the long octagonal barrel. Again, I shoot all .45 colt and load my own to Cowboy specs, so it is a dream to shoot. I love the way it looks and I honestly dont think I have ever missed a rifle target with it.
I use 2 Shotties. The first is the Win Mod 97 pump, It is great for those times you are just standing around pumping pellets. Hold it to your shoulder and load with the trigger hand.
The other is my Stoeger Uplander with 24" barrel. Not a Coach Gun, but seems to put more pellets on target at longer ranges. I really love it for move and shoot events. I polished the innards and it runs like a dream.
mgregg85
Member
Anybody ever use the breaktop revolvers, I think they are schofield type revolvers. I like the looks of the beretta laramie. What about the pump rifles like the taurus thunderbolt and the beretta goldrush?
Smokin Gator
Member
cowboy revolvers
If you want to buy something that has the best chance out of the box of working good, and to keep on working, the Ruger's are a good choice. I have a pair of the larger original Vaquero's and now they have the newer close to Colt size New Vaquero's. Very little needs to be done to the Rugers to clean up the action a bit, if any. Of course you can get further work done.
A higher percentage of the Colt type guns may need a little fine tuning, although plenty of them are good to go right off too. You see a few shooters with Schofields and Remington copies, but not a lot.
If you want to buy something that has the best chance out of the box of working good, and to keep on working, the Ruger's are a good choice. I have a pair of the larger original Vaquero's and now they have the newer close to Colt size New Vaquero's. Very little needs to be done to the Rugers to clean up the action a bit, if any. Of course you can get further work done.
A higher percentage of the Colt type guns may need a little fine tuning, although plenty of them are good to go right off too. You see a few shooters with Schofields and Remington copies, but not a lot.
tinygnat219
Member
mregg85,
Thought about the breaktops, then saw the prices. One gun cost more than I paid for my entire shooting setup. Other than handling them at the SHOT Show, I don't have any experience with them.
Thought about the breaktops, then saw the prices. One gun cost more than I paid for my entire shooting setup. Other than handling them at the SHOT Show, I don't have any experience with them.
mgregg85, The Taurus T-bolt is a "POS", I had 2 and never could get them to run right. I believe they have been discontinued. As far as the break tops, I have a Schofield in .45 Colt, a Russian in .44 Russian, and a Larmie in .38 Special. I shoot them along with a Colt's "open top" in .38 Special, and an 1875 Remington in .45 Colt. Of Course I also shoot a 56-50 Spencer and a model 87 Winchester. As you can guess, I'm not very competative, but sure rack up the "style points" and have a lot of fun.
I like Cimarrons/Ubertis, the Ruger seems overbuilt and I don't like the feel of the action as much. I don't use high pressure loads. I also like the looks of a SAA. I also think the Uberti is built better (Not Stronger), it has nice Walnut Grips, didn't have any problems, shot to point of aim. The Rugers I had both shot a foot to the left, one had a problem with the mechanism and had to be sent back and after they repaired it, it still wasn't quite right. The case colors look better on the Uberti (however the Uberti's case hardening isn't the best either).
Dravur
Member
Schofields
I picked up a 5" Schofield and thought I would try it out mixed in with my other guns.
If you are going to do that, get 2 and practice with them. I tried using a Colt gun and a Schofield. When I switched, I couldn't hit anything with the Schofield. If I was just practicing with it, it worked great, but the stress of switching threw my aim off.
The Schofields are fun guns.
Also, Leather is hard to find for them.
I picked up a 5" Schofield and thought I would try it out mixed in with my other guns.
If you are going to do that, get 2 and practice with them. I tried using a Colt gun and a Schofield. When I switched, I couldn't hit anything with the Schofield. If I was just practicing with it, it worked great, but the stress of switching threw my aim off.
The Schofields are fun guns.
Also, Leather is hard to find for them.
Hawk
Member
I don't usually pay attention to such things but I noticed that the Taurus Gaucho has appeared on pg 19 of the current CDNN catalog with "Liquidation" writ large on the top of the page.
I didn't call but there might be some nice pricing to be had. I also notice that they list an "all blue" model which is nice.
Lest I be accused of spreading internet rumor, I have no idea if CDNN's listing means they're liquidating just their own stock or their own plus Taurus'. The "lifetime warrantee" proclamation remains prominent in the listing.
I didn't call but there might be some nice pricing to be had. I also notice that they list an "all blue" model which is nice.
Lest I be accused of spreading internet rumor, I have no idea if CDNN's listing means they're liquidating just their own stock or their own plus Taurus'. The "lifetime warrantee" proclamation remains prominent in the listing.
jamesb
Member
It really depends on your budget.
Gauchos if you can't afford Vaqueros.
Vaqueros if you can't afford USFA.
It really is a good mix of people shooting rugers and Colt clones. Caliber also, you see alot of .38 because it is cheaper if you do not reload.
You will not go wrong with vaqueros, they look nice, built like tanks and are very reliable. My buddy has 3 of them.
Mat, not doormat also makes a good point, do you want to do CAS because you like shooting that era of guns and wnat to dress like a cowoy or do you want to compete to win. That choice really makes a difference. On the SASS site they have links to local SASS clubs, I would look for one in your area and show up to a shoot, most CAS shooters will let you borrow some gear the first time so you can see what you like. Me I wanted to shoot period guns and pretend to be a cowboy. I shoot a Colt SAA in .45 colt, a cimarron man with no name 51 navy conversion in .38, a winchester 94 in .357mag and a toz-66 12 ga SxS with exposed hammers (the barrels 28 or 30 inches long).
More information and a good beginer PDF can be found over at CASCITY.
Abe R. Kadaver SASS74667
Gauchos if you can't afford Vaqueros.
Vaqueros if you can't afford USFA.
It really is a good mix of people shooting rugers and Colt clones. Caliber also, you see alot of .38 because it is cheaper if you do not reload.
You will not go wrong with vaqueros, they look nice, built like tanks and are very reliable. My buddy has 3 of them.
Mat, not doormat also makes a good point, do you want to do CAS because you like shooting that era of guns and wnat to dress like a cowoy or do you want to compete to win. That choice really makes a difference. On the SASS site they have links to local SASS clubs, I would look for one in your area and show up to a shoot, most CAS shooters will let you borrow some gear the first time so you can see what you like. Me I wanted to shoot period guns and pretend to be a cowboy. I shoot a Colt SAA in .45 colt, a cimarron man with no name 51 navy conversion in .38, a winchester 94 in .357mag and a toz-66 12 ga SxS with exposed hammers (the barrels 28 or 30 inches long).
More information and a good beginer PDF can be found over at CASCITY.
Abe R. Kadaver SASS74667
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