Cowboy action questions

[Polar Express]

Hi.
I looked through this section, and I didn't see much on the CAS concept, but because they are competitions, I assume this is the proper place for this post?

Over the past few months, some curiosity developed into some interest in the CAS realm.

I'm 35, I have never competitively shot. I have grown up in the shooing sports as a family activity, and I love it. I have a personal affinity for the 1911 platform, and have never really been captivated by revolvers just as a concept, but I have always respected and admired them and the impact through history. But, after reading a little about the CAS stuff on some private web posts, it got me thinking, and I started cruising through some mfgr's websites.

I love history, and Western Movies, and I supposed that contributes to my interest. It appears to be a friendly competition, where your period-accurate costuming and props are heavily involved in the hobby. I can understand why some might feel that is a bit hokey, but for some reason, there is an attraction.

It is my understanding that in order to 'play', you need 4 guns: 2 revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun. All must meet the criteria for your chosen group and class. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Normally, I'd wrinkle my nose at someone who is all worried about how it 'looks', but in this hobby, that's actually a huge part of the event, so choosing one tool over another based on looks is actually part of the fun.

Rifle: I have a beautiful Browning B92 chambered in .44 mag. I understand it will feed 44 specials without a problem, so I could use it if I wanted. The problem, is it's sooo nice, I don't really want to do that. So, I'd have to find one that I would want to use. I love the look of the Henry's, and I think Cimmarron makes a copy. I'm not excited about spending $1500 on a rifle for this, so I might have to start cheaper, and save up if I decide I really dig this stuff.

Shotgun: I sure like the look of the side by side, with the "rabbit ear" exposed hammers. The exposed hammers are not that crucial, but if the price is similar, I do prefer that 'look'. Some have suggested the Stevens 311, as a nicely priced option, but I haven't seen one with exposed hammers, so I may not get my 'rabbit ears', without a gun 'upgrade'.

Pistols: From what I understand, you need two. For right now, if I have to have two to play, I think I'd like them to be the same. I don't need to buy new, but I have found some Uberti's marketed as a matched pair, for $1200 I think it was. Cimmarron also advertises some pistols for as low as 550 each, and while I don't require sequential serial #s, that would be kinda cool, and perhaps easier to find when ordering new. The shorter barrels appeal to me, but I have no idea if there is an 'ideal' length for the type of shooting that is done.

Calibers: While I have a 44 rifle, I think I would prefer to have my pistols and rifle use the same ammo. So far, I don't even know if I can find 44 cal pistols that would meet the CAS criteria? But, even if I can, I'm not inclined to use that Browning (it's just soooo nice) so if I have to get a rifle anyway, I'd rather just go with 45 LC. Besides, for a few extra bucks, I could get an ACP cylinder, and use that cheaper ammo for practice.

I want to go check out a CAS event, to see what it's really like. A friend of my dad's is active with it, and I've placed a phone call to him, but haven't had a chance to actually talk.

Can anyone out there lend some suggestions, or help point out some of the issues I've missed? (I'm sure there are lots!)

Thanks!
PE

 

[Jim Watson]

There are different approaches.

Guns:
You need two single action sixguns. Some pay for real Colt SAAs, others go with American copies from USFA or Italian copies from Uberti or Pietta. Those are imported by various outfits like Cimarron, Taylors, and EMF, probably others. Still others shoot Rugers which are not faithful replicas of the Colt but are hell for stout. There are some Remington type revolvers and a few Smith & Wesson repros. Cap & ball is an advanced study, not a good entry gun just because they are cheap. Cartridge conversions of c&b are kind of a gimmick if of modern design, a little finicky if true to period.

You need a lever action rifle in a pistol caliber. The same caliber as your revolvers is convenient but not essential. The leading guns are Uberti repros of Winchester 1866 and 1873; and the Marlin 94. The 1860 Henry gets a lot of style points. There are Winchester 1892 reproductions that are stronger than the '73s but not as smooth and fast. Pity you think your Japanese Browning too pretty to shoot, they are good examples.
The 94 Winchester is best left in .30-30, the pistol caliber versions are not great.
The various reproductions of the Colt Lightning pump rifle seem not to have the bugs out, leave them for the tinkerers.

You need a shotgun, either a double or a hammer pump, nothing now accepted but the Winchester 1897 or Communist Chinese copies. Doubles may be hammer or hammerless, but may not have ejectors. Ejector springs are not hard to remove if you see a gun you like with them. Single triggers are ok, though.

Calibers:
How authentic do you want to get? There were no .45 Colt, .44 Special/Russian, or .38 Colt/Special/.357 Magnum rifles in the 19th century. The period correct .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40 are expensive to buy and a little tedious to handload.

What is your recoil tolerance? A .38 kicks less than a .45 which will help speed and all-day comfort.

Do you handload? If so, that can make a lot of difference in the cost and recoil areas.

Shotguns are mostly 12 gauge with a few 20s to get a lighter gun and a very few 16s bought cheap or family guns. There are low recoil loads in 12 gauge that make them comfortable to shoot.


Me?
I started out with a Colt .44 Special, a Winchester '92 .44-40, and a 12 ga hammerless double. When two sixguns got to be essential, I added a Cimarron .44-40 and had a .44-40 cylinder installed in the Colt for common ammo.

If I had to reequip or even were shooting as much as I used to, I would take the easy way out with .38 Specials.


Mostly, go visit. You will see a lot of stuff, guns, gear, and clothes, and get a lot of real live help.
You will have a hard time getting away without shooting at least a little, folks are generous.

 

[WatongaJim]

The SASS website and forum has a lot of great information.

I took the easy way out. Here's what I use for CAS:
Ruger Vaqueros in 38/357
Marlin 1894CB in 38/357 (although I use .38s, the magazine will hold 10 rounds of .357)
Stoeger 12 gage with internal hammers

I like the looks of the external hammer shotguns but many that have tried them for CAS have complained about having to manually cock two hammers.

Bottom line - CAS is more about fun than the competition, so get what you like or use what you have and enjoy!

 

[Gunfighter123]

Hello,
SASS/Cowboy Action is FUN !!! Let me ask --- how competitive are you in "normal" activities/sports/video games ?? Myself = I am VERY competitive and after shooting IPSC/IDPA/3 Gun etc. for over 20 years , I finally started to shoot Cowboy about 6 years ago.

Even with YEARS of action shooting matches behind me , I still made a "Newbie" mistake ------- I started with a Marlin CB .45LC , pair of Ruger Bisley Vaquero .45s , and a Sav. 12ga. double. --------- after 3 or 4 matches , I was placeing in the top 20% overall with about 50-80 shooters per match.

After my first match , I started to shoot "Gunfighter " class and have never looked back !!! Problem is , with me being a "Gamer " , even with 160 gr. 45LC reloads at 700 fps ---- I wanted/knew that I could place higher ----- So , I bought a pair of custom Ruger Bisley .32s ---- problem was , with light .32 reloads and shooting very fast -- the ROs/spotters could not hear the "hits" on the steel plates {at times} and scored me with misses !!!

So --- I changed to a pair of Cim. Thunderers .357 and a Cim. 1873 in .357 that I had "short-stroked" and a Coyote Cap custom 1897 pump 12ga. ----- with that change and A LOT of practice , I now shoot into the Top Ten or around 97% , even thou I still shoot Gunfighter.

You will save HUGE dollars shooting .357/38s over .45LC ------ used .38Spl brass is dirt cheap compared to .45LC ---- lead bullets for reloading are also cheaper by far.

Few other things ----- DO NOT skimp on a holster rig !!! I use Bob MerNickle =
http://www.mernickleholsters.com/index.htm ------- Bob is a world class shooter in both SASS/CAS and Fast Draw ----- good leather rigs are not cheap , BUT , with min. care -- they last for many years and have good resale value if you decide CB shooting ain't for you.

Clothes = I use ankle length " miner " lace up boots ----- most of my clothes come from thrift stores , Sal. Army , or EBAY ----- some people have as much money in "dudes" as I have in my custom firearms !!!! Try to avoid real loose fitting shirts or vests --- they can be a safety hazard when drawing/holstering your revolvers. Also , be carefull of spurs with cowboy boots --- easy to trip or have them tangle when you are running a shooting stage.

I don't like "smooth" grips on my revolvers --- in the rain or when your hands are sweating , it is easy to lose your grip and perhaps drop them and get DQed.

When I just want to have fun --- I shoot a pair of .44 Black Powder HGs and a mule ear double SG or I will shoot "Duelist" etc.

Some of my Match CB guns;












And me at my finest ;







MAIN THING = HAVE FUN !!!!

 

[Polar Express]

Thank you all for taking the time to share your experiences!

How competitive am I?
I'm 35 now, and a bit less competitive than I was when I played college sports. I enjoy challenges, and ways to see if I am improving. When it's a team thing, I'm much more competitive, as my performance influences the outcome for others on my team. I never got into video games, I preferred to go play outside.

Do I reload?
As of this date, I have not reloaded any on my own. I helped my father when I was a kid, so I have a general appreciation for the process. This past year, through a group buy on this forum, I purchased a Dillon 550, and the associated equipment to reload. I am now working (slowly) on supply acquisition.

With regards to the ammo costs for various calibers
I'm glad I posted the question, and I'm grateful for your answers, as I have no concept of how much ammo one goes through for an event, and there is certainly the practice factor as well. I've seen some revolvers that meet the criteria that either come with, or one could obtain a cylinder that uses 45ACP. Can that be used in the events, or just for practice? If the dollar savings is as you shared (I fully believe you), then the 45ACP brass and supplies should make the reload cost more in line with the 38 special, right? (for some reason I can't explain, I just don't like the 38/357, I know, its silly of me, but that's just me)

What are my recoil tolerances?
Recoil does not bother me, physically. However, having never actually watched a CAS event, I am fully prepared to accept the idea that lower recoil could mean higher scores. Also, I have equipment for reloading, so depending on if/how this progresses, I would prefer using mild loads, as they reduce powder costs (probably minor issue here), and longer brass cycle life.

Platform decisions
I'm a larger guy, but not huge. (6'2", 210#) This makes recoil a little easier for me than for say, someone 5'7", with a slight build. That being said, I'm not trying to punish myself either. I have larger hands, so a grip shape that a smaller person likes, my not be my first choice. Cost is a factor right now, (but not the only one) and ultimate authenticity is not required by me. So, removing ejector springs in a lower-cost shotgun for example, will likely be how I start. I do like caliber consistency, and to me, that's more important than having a period-accurate caliber, and that's why I'm leaning towards the 45 caliber, especially if I can use 45ACP (in a cylinder designed for it) for practice or even events. (I have lots of 45acp already) I do love that Jap Browing of mine, it's just in such nice condition, I'm leary of using it in a competition environment, but then again, going out and buying another rifle gets expensive quick!

I've jumped on the websites for Ruger, Uberti, and Cimmarron, and they have nice pictures, but I'm excited about going someplace where I can actually handle and feel what different guns feel like in my hands.

Thank you for the tips on the clothing! I've been thinking about what name I'd pick, and when I get one figured out, I will likely join the SASS. (I think you have to pick your name at the time you join, right?) Now, I have to decide what 'look' I'd be trying to go with: would I want to wear an old-time suit-type stuff (more wealthy looking) and use polished guns, or would I rather look like a dusty cowhand type fella, with less flashy guns?

Those holsters look beautiful. I have seen another photo of some holsters someone called 'Mexican double-loop', made by a retired cop living in AZ, and they look nice as well. Is there an advantage to wearing your guns lower or higher on your body? I suspect what holster one would select would depend on where they wanted to locate their guns.

I'm sure there's lots more details and stuff to learn about this, and so far, it's been a lot of fun just reading and looking.

Thank you all for taking your time to share your knowledge, I have enjoyed reading it all!

PE

 

[Jim Watson]

The .45 ACP is not allowed in CAS events. Yes, you can get revolvers with .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders but the advantage is hard to see if you are reloading. It takes no more lead and only a smidgen more powder to load .45 Colt so there is no savings once you have a supply of brass. And there is some risk that the different cartridges might shoot to different places from a fixed sight gun.

 

[Polar Express]

Mr. Watson, thanks for that clarification, and tip. I will make sure to keep that in mind when making my decisions! I can buy a lot of 45LC brass for the cost to get those extra cylinders!

 

[larry_minn]

It can be a blast. If I may suggest. Unless you just want a "reason" to buy a couple more guns.
Find out when they have a practice match. Ask if you can go to learn. HINT do NOT wear tennis shoes/wife beater shirt/ do rag. Most any kind of boots (cowboy boots work) jeans, western button up shirt...
I had a .45LC revolver and single shot break open 16guage. As it had ejector the shotgun was not allowed. A number of shooters offered to loan me guns. I took the gent up who had a mate to my pistol/rifle in .45LC (so I had ammo) It was fun. I hope to make it again this spring. (gent told me I couldn't borrow his guns again because I shot faster/had better hits my first time with HIS guns then he ever did.

 

[Sixguncowboy]

Mr. Watson is mistaken. 45acp is now allowed in CAS matches. We now have Wild Bunch (based on the movies The Wild Bunch & The Professionals) side matches. Some clubs even run a monthly Wild Bunch match. Gun requirements are a 1911 semi auto, with 2 mags, a Winchester 1897 shotgun or replica thereof, & a Winchester 1892 rifle or replica thereof. Time period is 1912-1918. Some clubs will let you shoot DA revolvers of the time period. There are two categories to compete in, "traditional", which means the pistol must be milspec in all regards & must be shot one handed and "modern" which means the pistol can have adjustable sights, front slide serations, skeletonized hammer, adjustable trigger etc and may be shot using a two hand hold.

Go here: http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=12 for more info.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Hiya PE,
My understanding is that YOU CAN compete with a .45acp cylinder in your revolver.
As to holsters ---- first off , they MUST BE STIFF and made with heavy weight leather or some have a metal/nylon lineing sandwiched between two pcs. of leather. There will be MANY stages where you have to reholster your revolvers , say after shooting your rifle or sg etc. --- a well made SASS holster will have a "roll" at the top of the opening to "funnel" your gun into. I advise to stay away from Hunter brand holsters as they will collapse when the rev. is drawn and makes it very hard and UNSAFE to reholster your handguns.

As to Low or High based holsters --- I've used both. The Buskallaro {sp?} or Movie Gunfighter rig is lower down on the thighes and will most likely have "leg ties" at the bottom ---- this rig is FAST when the stage calls for you to start with your hands at your sides etc. ---- but a BIG Problem with this type of rig is that when you run/walk fast , the rev. can/does "bounce out" once in awhile as it sits much lower on your leg. If your handgun hits the ground dureing a match -- you will/can be DQed and have a very short and embarresing day !!! As you can see --- I much prefere the High Ride type of holsters --- with a "hands at side" starting position , I let my wrists touch the very bottom of the holsters and just draw my hands straight up till my fingers get a solid rig -- still very fast and when I run , I can use my elbows {if holding rifle/sg } to help keep the rev. in the holsters.

When/if you do join SASS { I would hope you do } -- when you call to enrole , have AT LEAST three names picked out for yourself -- you will not know if a name is already taken till you call SASS headquarters.

As to amount of ammo in a local one day match --- think of 5 to 7 stages , each stage will require 10 rds. of handgun , 10 rds. of rifle and 4-8 rds. of SG ammo. --- so about 100-150 rds. of hg/rifle combined and at least a full box {25 } of SG ammo --- BRING EXTRA AMMO ALWAYS !!!!

I see you are leaning towards the .45LC and that is a fun and popular choice --- if you go with Rugers , you can get darn near Magnum power out of the .45 for hunting etc. When I shot .45s , I started with 255 gr. , then went to 200 gr. , and then went to 160 gr. lead bullets ----- I would say to stay at the 200gr. ---- I liked mine to get about 900/1000 fps out of my 24" Marlins and 800fps or less out of my handguns.
WIth the longer range rifle targets --- you want more speed so you can hear the steel ring quicker --- helps to get you on the next target a little faster.

Well , thats all I can think of for now ------- please do not be shy and ask any/all questions you may have.
GF123

 

[sixgun MAK]

SASS allowing 1911s is the dumbest thing ever involving CAS.

If you get in with the right bunch, CAS is a blast.

If you get mixed in with "gamers", not so fun.

For me, CAS is about history of the west and the firearms, not about winning the trophy with squibby loads out of "slicked" guns that didn't even exsist in those days.

Sorry about my rant, I guess I'm more of a NCOWS guy than a SASS guy.

 

[Jim Watson]

SASS allowing 1911s is the dumbest thing ever involving CAS.

Yes, the board of directors calling themselves The Wild Bunch got them stuck with the image of the out-of-period movie of the name. Wild Bunch events seem to have turned into a Wild Bunch category with 1911s.

I was always against the pump shotguns, but once the weird but fast techniques to shoot them single shot were developed, there was no stopping them.

This should not be a consideration to the OP. He can have a lot of fun without getting tangled up in the gamer vs warthog debates.

 

[Gunfighter123]

I was always against the pump shotguns, but once the weird but fast techniques to shoot them single shot were developed, there was no stopping them.

Jim -- I agree 100% and I told my TG when the Wild Bunch was voteing on the Mods to Firearms that pump shotguns should have been allowed ONLY in Modern Class --- along with "short-stroked" rifles and revolvers.

If you get in with the right bunch, CAS is a blast.

If you get mixed in with "gamers", not so fun.

Sorry MAK ---- I just have to disagree with that statement . I guess I am a Gamer -- I shoot "short-stroked" rifles , revolvers in a calibur {.357} that didn't exist " way back then" , and try to shoot the stage as fast as I can . SASS/Cowboy Action is a GAME we play -- everyone is a Gamer to some degree. As far as being "mixed in with Gamers - not so much fun" ---- check out my Cow photos above and then tell me that I and my entire posse was not having fun !!!

For me, CAS is about history of the west and the firearms, not about winning the trophy with squibby loads out of "slicked" guns that didn't even exsist in those days.

As I stated above --- I come from a IPSC/IDPA/Action background -- I LOVE the history of the West and as my photos show , LOVE shooting Western Type Firearms also. I have been a Match Director/Match RO in hundreds of CB Matches and that includes Set Up/ Tear Down , scoreing , ordering ribbons/door prizes/food etc. etc. --- we all enter into a Shooting GAME , not a clothes/history game . I "play" by whatever rules there are. And for me --- if my "arch rival "/top competitor is useing "slicked up " firearms , to have a chance of beating them , I also must have the same type of Game LEGAL firearms.

As to NCOWS vs. SASS -------- there is room for all . I ask , which has more Members ?
Personally , I do not want to shoot a Game where they check out how many buttons are on the "fly" of your pants --- zippers work fine for me.

This should not be a consideration to the OP. He can have a lot of fun without getting tangled up in the gamer vs warthog debates.

Again , 100% correct Jim ----- this is like the old Gamers vs. Martial Artist stuff from the late 1970s in Modern Action Shooting ---- the old IPSC vs. IDPA stuff . I try not to use a "broad-brush" when talking about Gamers/Martial Artists/WartHogs/MousePharts etc. -- there is room for all and as we are all shooters , we should not fight among ourselfs.

 

[Polar Express]

wow, thanks for all the interest and responses! I sure didn't mean to stir up a bee's nest.

I've already decided that if I want to get into the CAS sport, I would want to stick with the older design concepts: revolvers, and break-shotguns. If I want to get into competing in the auto & pump world, I'll go try some 3-gun matches. I've already got the toys to play that game.

Before I decide to purchase any firearms, I'll be sure to clarify if the rules will let me use 45 ACP cylinders and Ammo in competition. As I stated earlier, because I ALSO love the 1911 platform, I already have the equipment to load that, and have been assembling supplies as well. But..... it comes full circle, that if I'm gonna run 45 ACP's through my revolvers, I am then NOT using the 'same ammo' as what would run in my rifle, so I'm back in the same boat I am in with my B92 in .44; the clarification would be they would be capable of shooting the same cartridges.

I dunno, for the cost of extra acp cylinders, I can buy a lot of 45LC brass, and using low pressure loads, that brass should last many cycles. I'm making a large assumption that they allow competitors to pick up their brass, I guess that would be an important issue! Do they?

Also, what is NCOWS? Is it a sub-group of the SASS, or a competing organization?

Thanks for the tips on the holsters, I took a look at the link you posted, and some of those sure look nice. You are correct, they can be expensive, but I'll believe you that they last a long time, and you get what you pay for.

Again, thank you all for sharing your experience and opinions. I appreciate it greatly.

PE

 

[Jim Watson]

I'll be sure to clarify if the rules will let me use 45 ACP cylinders and Ammo in competition.

I do not think a .45 ACP REVOLVER CYLINDER is allowed in regulation CAS.
Sixguncowboy is referring to the mutant Wild Bunch event which is based on the 1911 .45 AUTOMATIC as seen in the out of period movie of that title.

The rules state:
REVOLVER REQUIREMENTS
Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition...

Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt).

That does not sound like a gun and cartridge combination not seen until 1917 would be allowable. But I don't run the game. I suggest you inquire with SASS or the Territorial Governor at a nearby SASS club before you spend your money.

 

[Polar Express]

Mr. Watson,

Thanks for your suggestions, I plan on more research before I spend any money. As I have written in a couple posts, the cost assocated with two additional cylinders, (as well as limiting my gun options) will mean it actually makes more sense to just stick with the 45 LC (if that is indeed the caliber I select) and pick up the brass required.

I am gaining interest in CAS, the more I read and learn, but I suspect it will take some time for me to acquire the proper hardware to be able to participate.

I still have so much to learn!

Have a great night!

PE

 

[eddienyr]

PE

Where are you located, I'm in Marysville.