Criminals and OC spray

[mbt2001]

But isn't it illegal for a criminal to own OC??? Isn't it illegal to rob a store? I mean, we banned those things....

Obviously we need to stop private sales, straw purchases and Chemical expo shows... CLOSE THE CHEMICAL EXPO LOOP HOLE!

 

[Torchman]

Having a little experience here, I'll toss in my two centavos. I acted as a OC pepper spray qualifier for many years. Every CG Boarding Officer/Boarding Team Member has to go thru a course to be allowed to carry OC. Drawing the canister, spraying the target ..all with inert..YAWWWWWN! The final Qual drill, is the fun part...

It goes like this. "Close your eyes". You are then hit with a full face exposure. "Open your eyes". At this point, you are assaulted by your "friend" in a redman suit. You have to fight him off until you are told to draw your weapon. At that point, you have to talk them into a prone cuffing position. "Holster and snap in your weapon". Only THEN can you dive into the OHHH SO LOVELY bucket of water!

The Taser guys talk of "Riding the Wave". I have never used/carried a Taser, so I wont even pretend any knowledge. But I will relate MY experience with chemical irritants, and summarize with what MY ACTIONS would be. First, we usually scheduled this for early Sunday morning, as it had to be done outdoors and the non-operational looky-loos were at home in bed. LOL..it IS a show. So...I am standing at the ready...eyes closed..feel the spray.."OPEN YOUR EYES!"..YEAH RIGHT!!!!! They opened ONCE...then slammed tighter than the vault at Fort Knox! I caught the blur of red coming at me, and was able to snap kick in that general direction. I think the most accurate description I have heard for the pain is "Bobbing for french fries". I had a MASSIVE adrenaline dump, and went tasmanian devil...thank GOD I caught a lucky punch to my friends head and knocked him to the ground...didn't have to talk him into the prone position... I was beyond talking at this point..the only thing out of my mouth were words like &%%^, and @#!)*! I got my weapon drawn, and had to use my off hand to pry my left eye open to aim down on the "suspect". I got my weapon holstered on command...but getting the snap was the longest 5 seconds of my life! What is even better is the re-flash. After a few hours of recovery, I went home. The SECOND I walked in the door, it was like being sprayed again! I lived in a second story apt...I had a snot that went from the balcony to the ground!! (sorry for the graphic!)

Conclusion/Summary...If I am hit with OC in real life, I will draw and fire the 3 yard drill WITHOUT HESITATION. I know from experience that I have a matter of seconds until I am incapacitated. While OC is "less than lethal" force, what follows WONT BE.

I have never seen ANYONE volunteer to get sprayed twice. And of ALL training records, most people make 18 copies and hide them everywhere so they never have to do it again...

(PS.. Can of Fox sitting 2 feet from me as I type... )

 

[rainbowbob]

Conclusion/Summary...If I am hit with OC in real life, I will draw and fire the 3 yard drill WITHOUT HESITATION.

Torchman:

Thanks for that real-world description of a pepper spray attack. Now I gotta ask...and I can understand if you would hesitate to answer, but...

At what point - if any - BEFORE getting hit with OC would you "...draw and fire the the ? yard drill WITHOUT HESITATION."?

 

[Torchman]

No problem, Bob..
But you asked the toughest/easiest question there is..

I would draw and fire when I was in fear for my life.

Now if you want to get into judgemental shooting and the deadly force triangle...

 

[LtShortcut]

All of you who spoke about what would happen after the oc/taser was used hit the nail right on the head.

oc/tasers are being used to precipitate rapes all the time. I don't know about murders and such.

In Alabama you are allowed to use deadly force if you BELIEVE you, or another, are in danger of serious bodily injury or death.

As long as you know how to properly tell your story in a sworn statement it should be considered a good shoot.

By the way, has any LEO done a thread on the proper way to do your sworn statement after a shoot?

 

[Jeff White]

By the way, has any LEO done a thread on the proper way to do your sworn statement after a shoot?

No and that thread won't be permitted here. We don't give out legal advice. Someone should only make a statement after consulting with their attorney.

Jeff

 

[Torchman]

IANAL...but want to point out a "good shoot", whether LEO or Civilian.. is a good shoot. Really, it all comes down to articulation of the FACTS. "He needed Killin" will probably end up with you facing a Judge. Thats why I posted further up in this thread...I am a fairly recent ex-LEO...yet because of training and experience would be held to a higher standard. On the Use of Force Continuim, based on DOCUMENTED TRAINING, using Level 6 Force on a Level 4 attack would be something that I could honestly articulate. Civilians wouldnt jump that hoop. But in both cases, the Litmus paper is."I was in immediate fear for my life" If you are LEGITEMATLY in fear for your life...then you do what you have to do to stand in front of a Judge. That is where "Based on my experience of FULL EXPOSURE to OC under controlled conditions, I knew I only had 10-15 seconds to gain full compliance or be rendered blind and fully incapacitated". Which round circles back to...."I was in fear for my life". Sometimes this gets nitpicked Ad Nauseum on this forum. The ONE THING I would add as far as LEGAL...and IANAL..is you NEVER SHOOT TO KILL! You shoot to STOP THE THREAT. PERIOD.

A good shoot is a good shoot, LEO or civilian. While use by a LEO under the Use of Force Continuim I was trained under, and instructed OC was considered Level 4 force (Strikes, Kicks, Stuns), I can easily articulate it being a Level 6 attack used against me. The Devil is in the details.

 

[LtShortcut]

Well there you go jeff.

 

[Jeff White]

Torchman,
Where is there a published and accepted as best practices use of force continuum for a civilian?

What intermediate weapons do all civilians carry?

Where is the duty for a civilian to act so that he may need a use of force continuum?

You are basing your post on a model for a peace officer who has a statutory duty to act in certain situations. A private citizen has no such duty and because of that has no need for a use of force continuum to enforce compliance.

You can't apply the rules as they apply to a peace officer who has a duty to act to a civilian self defense situation. Many instances where a peace officer uses force would be considered a mutual combat situation if a private citizen used force in the same situation.

You and I were trained to write a narrative based on training and a duty to act that a private citizen does not possess.

It's best to make no statement until after you've consulted with your attorney.

Ltshortcut,
A civilian use of deadly force investigation is going to be a bit more complex then a 15-6 investigation to see if the ROE was followed.

Jeff

 

[Torchman]

LT...Unfair to Jeff...and NOT Highroad...

 

[Torchman]

Exactly Jeff. My point was, at the bottom line is "Were you in FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE?".. I am not Chuck Norris, and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn for more than 10 years.

In 20 years..I still replay the ONE TIME I drew down and took up trigger slack...because someone didn't follow procedure. I was a GNATS HAIR from killing someone holding a BB gun...as Mr Buffet said "Changes in Attitudes, Changes in Lattitudes"

I dont believe "Lawyer" is the ONLY responce. Nor is babbling like a drunken baboon. Personally? I would lean towards the "X did Y...I am feeling chest pains and need medical attention" You DID NOTHING WRONG...but being coooperative and gaining breathing room in the most stressfull situation in your life is NOT WRONG. I know when I ALMOST pulled the bangswitch, I was a wreck. I walked away and left my so called "partner" alone. Never worked with the man again, at my request.

What I think is relevant, Jeff...is people understand that they may DEFEND themselves..if they are in FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES. Its not a legal consult, but you MUST be able to articulate it at the proper time.

This thread is about a criminal spraying you with OC. And my OPINION is it is probably a SHOOT scenario.

Anything else...lets start a new topic that is High Road
Frank

 

[Torchman]

one more...

So a stranger steps up and sprays you in the face with an unknown liquid....is it OC or Hydrchloric Acid? Gonna send it to a lab and wait for results before you react to the THREAT?