My thoughts on OC Spray

[mercop]

I have been in been in law enforcement for well over a decade and have always been mandated to carry OC Spray. While still active duty Military Police I became and instructor and over the years have seen street applications of OC approx 20-25 times under various conditions. That said I have never seen it used by a civilian so I my points on civilian carry are only conjecture and educated opinion.

The biggest problem facing a civilian and the carry of OC is the fact that unless it is in your hand at the time of the attack and your thumb is on the button the chance of being able to deploy it is slim. This would require that whenever in any kind of a danger area you would have it in your hand. If I had to have something in my hand against an unknown threat it would be a Surefire or some kind of a pocket stick.

The second problem is that it does absolutely nothing to stop or control the mechanism of the attack. For most people it only causes massive discomfort and involuntary closing of the eyes. During the many times that I have been cross contaminated I never felt that it at all hindered my ability to inflict damage on any opponent that I could feel in my hands. If anything it motivated me to hold on and become even more violent. Thus if someone in within conversation distance where they would have to be to assault or rob you and you spray them and they bum rush forward and get there hands on you they really don’t need their eyes anymore. What would OC do to defend against multiple attackers?

On the subject of cross contamination, do you wear contacts? Do you or your family members have any respiratory issues? Have you ever really been sprayed to see what your physical reaction will be? What is the chance of you being in a place that has no breeze at all when you have to use the OC? Will it get blown back in your face? How will you feel when you can’t see your attacker anymore than he can see you? The OODA Loop is Observe, Orient, Decide and Act. Hard to have OODA without Observe. Do you plan on using it for anti-car jacking? The idea is to be able to leave the area. How well do you think you will be able to drive with even a little OC in your eyes?

OC is also a prohibited item in federal building and commercial flights. Do you want the primary tool in your EDC arsenal to be something that is unexplainable as anything other that what it is or would you rather carry Surefire, heavy pen or a pocket stick of whatever variety that could be carried even in the most secure environments?


OC for police is a stand off or crowd control tool at best When you don’t have or don’t wish to use a Taser and Billy Badass says that he is not going to jail you can sometimes make him comply buy taking the OC and shaking it. Same goes for using it to threaten people to back up. Sometimes they will just give up. But what if they don’t? If you do spray them you still have to go hands on at some point and then they have to go in your car. Again what if you do get cross contaminated? How well can you defend your gun?

I have NEVER seen OC used by police during a spontaneous or flash attack. And they more so than civilians have it right there on their belt in a pretty little pouch. Chances are that a civilian or plain clothes officer will have to dig in a pocket or glove box for theirs?

My advise for civilians and off duty LE would be to always have an impact weapon close at hand.

And as for uniform LE, get off your lazy ass and learn to use whatever stick you are issued or allowed to carry. It should be your go to tool after empty hand techniques.

If there was one thing that I could take off my duty belt it would be that little bull**** vial of Karate in a can. OC has never and will never make up for lack of training.

 

[pax]

mercop,

Keeping in mind that the ordinary citizen has somewhat different rules of engagement than the average cop, and that the basic goal for a non-LEO encounter is simply to get away from the assailant, the question is: why would you urge someone to go hands-on, if instead they could escape without going hands-on?

That's basically what the choice between short stick and OC boils down to, in most cases.

(Serious question, but inapplicable to me in any case: I'm severely asthmatic, and don't carry the stuff. But it's an interesting discussion.)

pax

 

[fjolnirsson]

I have to agree with most of what Mercop is saying here. OC is marketed as being far more effective than it really is. It is enough to slow down or stop a casual attacker, perhaps. But I simply can't see betting my life on it. I would recommend almost anything before pepperspray, the reason being this...If someone wants to carry pepperspray, that means they can't or won't carry a gun where they are going. Most times, it means they won't, out of some lack of education, confidence, or due to living in a nanny state. If a person lacks the resolve to carry a firearm, my experience has been that they don't have their eyes open yet, and are apt to rely heavily on that can as a stop-all. What happens to the 120 lb girlfriend when her can of seasoning does nothing to slow down the 250 lb gorilla she has just made angry with her can of seasoning. She now has shown her ace, and it wasn't enough.
If, however, it is not the only tool she has, she has other choices. In close with a kubaton or Surefire, she can eye gouge, bite, kick, hit pressure points, etc. Of course, non of these make up for a firearm, which is what she should ultimately be carrying. It is THE ONLY force multiplier which can level the playing field for her. Period.
I feel pepperspray has a place, and a usefullness. Properly used by police or civilian, it can be a valuable tool. Too many people believe in a mythological version of it, which saps the life force of an attacker upon application. In the absence of a firearm, I recommend an impact tool, and running shoes, rather than pepper spray.

 

[sacp81170a]

I have NEVER seen OC used by police during a spontaneous or flash attack.

Hmmm. Strange, that's where I've seen it used most often. It's part of our continuum of force. Doesn't mean we have to do anything else before we use it, or that we have to use it at all. For some reason, since we got Tasers the incidence of our officers having to use OC has gone down quite a bit. LOL, the BG's must be more scared of them than OC.

And as for uniform LE, get off your lazy ass and learn to use whatever stick you are issued or allowed to carry.

Man, you got an attitude, don't ya? We're constantly practicing handcuffing techniques, PPCT, baton techniques, all the goodies. We have practice sessions on a monthly basis, at least. Lots of our officers train on their off time, too. I'm a second dan in Kali Silat, so I do a lot of instruction on baton technique.

The biggest problem facing a civilian and the carry of OC is the fact that unless it is in your hand at the time of the attack and your thumb is on the button the chance of being able to deploy it is slim. This would require that whenever in any kind of a danger area you would have it in your hand. If I had to have something in my hand against an unknown threat it would be a Surefire or some kind of a pocket stick.

????

Not sure, but I think you're mixing arguments here. If you don't have something in your hand, no matter what it is, gun, Taser, OC or kubotan, it's gonna be tough to get it out after you've been attacked. That's where awareness and watching for attack cues comes into play. Has nothing to do with the effectiveness of OC or the lack thereof.

OC is like any other tool in the toolbox. Useful in some circumstances, not so useful in others. If it's all that's available to you, ya gotta make do and adjust your tactics to fit. At the very least, if the BG is affected at all you've made it harder for him to see you, which is a good thing. Is it the best tool for all circumstances? Not by a long shot. Can it be more useful in some circumstances than other tools? You betcha.

 

[Mtnvalley]

Lessee...a pocket stick, OC, needs to be in hand, for us civvies it needs to be somewhat innocuous-looking when carried in hand.

Sounds like a checklist for an ASP Street Defender (or Key Defender) attached to one's keys...and carried parallel to forearm (when walking), keys dangling, and thumb on the OC safety. If you've got the distance to deploy the OC, great; if not (or it doesn't stop the threat), the stick is in hand. One could do worse.

 

[Eyesac]

One could do worse.

I agree... The more tools you have at you're disposal the more options you have. My favorite part about OC is that if I MUST walk by something that scares me, I can have it in my hand (finger on button), where as my firearm is IWB. Also, if a drunk hobo is staggering towards me (no reason to draw of course) I can stop him w/o touching him (my pregnant wife can't run as fast as me..)

 

[mercop]

sacp1170A, you have seen police draw OC as a reaction like they would during a spontaneous threat? I just never have.

Yes I have an attitude about the use of the police baton. The rule is that edged weapons seek flesh and impact weapons seek bone. Where are we taught to strike with the ASP? In muscle groups. Is that the same way you train in Kali? IMHO the baton is the most underutilized tool in LE. I have about a dozen or so street used and only one time did it involve striking. And during that one time it took a long time to work, four leg muscle strikes and the last to the ball of the ankle (that one folded him like a lawn chair) bent my damn ASP though.

I don't advocate that anyone engage in any type of altercation, verbal or otherwise. But if someone chooses to engage you and go hands on and I hat the choice of a a blast of OC to save me or a hammer fist with a Cross Pen, I will take the pen.

 

[sacp81170a]

Also, if a drunk hobo is staggering towards me (no reason to draw of course) I can stop him w/o touching him

Given the risk of infectious diseases these days, there's more than one reason not to go "hands-on" if you can help it. I've had to lay hands on people I really didn't want to touch and I use disposable gloves when I can. If you don't have to make contact it's better not to.

 

[MostlyGenius]

OC doesn't work all the time, but neither does shooting people. I don't think it should be your sole means of self defense, but it is a great low level tool. Impact weapons are much higher level of force. Without documentation of training, using your ASP could be argued to be deadly force.

The time to get OC into your hand is when you think you might need it, not when you know you need it. So this means that if things have progressed to violence you have probably already passed the point where OC would have really been useful. If you are swinging at me it is probably to late for me to quickdraw my OC.

The time to spray is when I think you are planning to punch me. I can't legally ASP you at the point I think you are planning to punch me.

 

[mercop]

I don't go hands on if I have a choice. Unfortunately the reality is that the only way to physicaly control a person is by contact.

For most civilians carrying an ASP is a nogo but carrying flashlights and pens is good to go. And if you can articulate that you were in fear of being assaulted then you would be justified in the use of reasonable force.

The enemy is no more vulnerable than just before he attacks. A preemptive strike is a good strike.

I would prefer to have a duel purpose tool in my hand all the time than believe I would be able to anticipate a situation where I would need a dedicated tool.

And we have not even gotten into the OC being expired or the lack of quality. Most of the knives you see people carried are low quality POS, would it not be safe to assume that that same would hold true for most OC spray?

 

[pax]

But if someone chooses to engage you and go hands on and I hat the choice of a a blast of OC to save me or a hammer fist with a Cross Pen, I will take the pen.

Mercop,

You must have missed my question, or maybe I wasn't clear when I asked it.

The real beauty of pepper spray is that it can be used without giving the guy the chance to get his hands on you in the first place.

Obviously, once someone does put their hands on you, hands-on tools are called for. That's not an issue.

But for non-LEOs, there are a lot of situations that never will go hands-on -- if the defender stays out of reach and gets away quickly enough. The chances of a successful escape are greatly increased if the defender has a tool that will stand the attacker back and keep him from getting his hands on them in the first place.

pax

edited to add: remember, non-LEOs do not need to control the attacker. They need to escape the attacker. Different missions!

 

[MostlyGenius]

I don't go hands on if I have a choice. Unfortunately the reality is that the only way to physicaly control a person is by contact.

As a private citizen why would I want to control anyone? Again, OC is low level. A significant percentage of people would be disinclined to continue after getting sprayed. Of those that are willing to continue, a significant perentage will not be able to do so effectively (IE prevent me from leaving.)

A pen is not dual purpose in self defense terms. You can't justify inflicting puncture wounds on many of the people you can justify pepper spraying. If I am quick drawing a weapon it isn't going to be a pen, and if I get to get something in my hand early, I might as well get something with a stand off capability.

If I am holding my pepper spray can't I palm-heel/hammer fist them with the can after I have hosed them if it is still necessary?

I am not opposed to hitting them with my flashlight, but only if I already have it in hand.

 

[sm]

I've OC'd and I personally have responded different each time. I am just a civilian.

Now my sinuses and allergies take spurts.
Being sprayed, feeling fine, no allergy problems, I was more affected than the time I had a sinus infection, headache, out shooting, run, get OC'd and have to continue shooting.

This mirrors what I have seen on the streets and films, everyone is different, add variables such as high, drunk, both, adrenalin and other factors.

I am not one to put stock in one tool, I like options, and the more the better.
My daily activities, where I travel, include restricted areas, where OC, is not allowed.

Mace with a dye I had in vehicles. Mine all expired, though most kept working a long time after expiration date.
This was for vehicle use, and to mark a person, with the Mace being secondary in my thinking.

Situation did occur, where I Maced as I evaded. I call in first, and give best description I could, plus inform officers the Mace has a dye that shows under UV.
This marked me as the Good Guy, the one confronted, and why I drove off and went through a Red light illegally [marked no right turn on right].

I never thought the display of the Mace, the use of the Mace would stop the threat, just for me, for that situation, as I am going to evade, is what I chose first.
Mark 'em, as I evade.
I do not want to shoot or use anything as a weapon if I can possibly avoid it.
I have my lessons, I have my quality practice, still my default is to not be there, and evade if trouble does show up.

I've BTDT and there is a Problem 2, and many would be wise to consider Problem 2.

Fact is, there are some cold folks out there, and even a 12 ga shotgun pointed at them, will not have them back down.

 

[mercop]

First of all the reason for the thread was to talk about using OC, not whether I am right or anyone else is wrong. Most of the time OC threads are only about "which brand of OC should I get my girlfriend"

In my other thread the Garage scenario many people stated how if they were able to get their hands on their attacker after being sprayed how violent they would be. If your OC does not work as well as you wanted to or if they just bum rush you and get their hands on you, what do you think they are going to do to you? Then you get cross contaminated. If you carry OC have you been sprayed? Do you know how you will react? OC kicks my a$$ like Bruce Lee. Part of the problem it is not in my EDC.

As far as why would you want to control someone as a civilian. All problems can not be controlled at a distance. My point is that if you have to hands on with someone you need to understand how to control them. Many people who are stabbed report that they thought they were being punched. It is also known that it is usually the last few stabs that prove fatal. For a well rounded SD system you need to understand the mechanisim of the attack and how to control it to limit damage to you while inflicting on them.

Since we have discussed all the variables of OC use and that the idea is to get away, do you spray and run away only to be pursued by an only partially blind attacker or do you wait a second to see what the effect is?

On several forums I have been asking police officers how many times have they taken a report of a citizen using OC to defend themselves. So far I have none, but have several officers reporting that they have handled calls for OC being used as a weapon during a robbery, assault etc.

 

[sacp81170a]

sacp1170A, you have seen police draw OC as a reaction like they would during a spontaneous threat? I just never have.

I have yet to see someone just up and attack an LEO out of the blue. Generally, OC gets used when they fail to comply with verbal commands. Any aggressive move after that earns the OC. Remember, we're taught to take control of the situation, not wait and see what the guy's gonna do. Completely different mind set and tactics than civilian use.

Yes I have an attitude about the use of the police baton. The rule is that edged weapons seek flesh and impact weapons seek bone. Where are we taught to strike with the ASP? In muscle groups.

Don't know who came up with that "rule", but I suppose you could put it that way. The weapons don't "seek", they strike or cut where they're targeted. We're taught to strike with the ASP in muscle groups because of liability issues. It's the same reason we don't smack people over the head with 4 D-cell flashlights any more. We're trying to take people into custody, not injure them any more than necessary.

Is that the same way you train in Kali?

Uh, no, but I practice techniques in Kali that I'd never use on the street in an arrest. Striking the face area with your baton is effective, but it'll lose you your job in a hurry. It may be rough out there, but it's not a free-fire zone.

You're casting situations in a very black and white manner. Not every altercation has to end with the BG or you in the hospital. Evasion is the ticket for those whose duty doesn't include taking people into custody. OC is a tool that can help you achieve that. Taser recommends that users of their civilian product hit the BG with the Taser, leave it on the ground and use the time to get away. They even guarantee replacement of the Taser if it ever has to be used in that way. I agree with them.

On several forums I have been asking police officers how many times have they taken a report of a citizen using OC to defend themselves. So far I have none, but have several officers reporting that they have handled calls for OC being used as a weapon during a robbery, assault etc.

When I teach CCW classes, I cover the subject of OC, what to expect, when you can and can't use it, etc. I address it as a tool of de-escalation, IOW, something you can do rather than shooting someone. I leave the choice up to the students, but I explain the different factors involving its use and try to dispel the misinformation and mythology surrounding its use. The uncertainty that I've seen in my students comes from ignorance of the subject. It's just something that not many people take the time or trouble to consider. Might the reason that you've received few reports of defensive OC use be that people who do use it in that manner are afraid of getting in trouble if they report it?

 

[mercop]

Brother we are on the same job and I hope you know I am not trying to argue with you, only discuss.

Would you say that the times you have seen an officer use OC it was more of a stand off situation and not a draw an spray response against a specific threat? Have you ever taken a report of a citizen using OC against an attacker?

I do not think it is a free fire zone. Like I stated earlier, I don't prefer striking with the baton. As a matter of fact I prefer to use it closed.

 

[sacp81170a]

Would you say that the times you have seen an officer use OC it was more of a stand off situation and not a draw an spray response against a specific threat?

I've seen it used under lots of circumstances, one being when I was on the ground with a guy trying to handcuff him. He started resisting and trying to get away, so my partner pulled out OC, warned him, then sprayed him. He quickly became compliant. Another situation was with a drunk on a bicycle, of all things. One of our officers pulled over to stop him, called him over, and the guy proceeded to ram the unit with his bike. He started to get up and throw his bike at the officer but the officer OC'd him and stopped him. (Saw that one on video, and it's still hard to believe. Put a big scratch down the side of the cruiser, which made my buddy angrier than anything else the guy did.)

Have you ever taken a report of a citizen using OC against an attacker?

Not personally, but I have a lot of friends on the U of A PD who do so pretty regularly, maybe once or twice every month or so. The U of A gives safety classes to coeds, which is a good thing IMHO.

To further address your point, the few times when I've needed to draw my firearm I didn't wait until I needed to shoot. Fortunately, I've never had to(shoot, that is), but I was able to clearly see circumstances developing where I might've needed to. After all, action beats reaction.

Disclaimer: An LEO drawing a weapon in preparation doesn't have the same problem of being charged with brandishing a weapon that a citizen does. We have a duty to pursue and apprehend. You normally don't. That said, we have to file a weapons report every time we do, and we'd better have a good reason for doing so.

 

[mercop]

The majority of what we know about BGs being sprayed on the street comes from the police doing so. One of the major points in this thread is the huge difference between civilians and police. I would like to see some of these those reports where citizens used OC. It would be interesting to see the whole story.

 

[Kingcreek]

Pax would seem to have a valid point.
I am not a LEO, just a plain ol civilian in the no-ccw state of Illinois. I wouldn't rely on OC alone but it has a place in my personal defense plan.
I deployed OC (fox labs) in an attempted car-jacking. I left the aggressor rolling on pavement the middle of an intersection and I was able to drive about 2 blocks to a parking lot in a much better place to deal with my own dose of overspray. Heck, I didn't feel like I had to control him!
I carry a surefire in the left front jacket pocket, OC in the right, and a folder in the right front pant pocket. Until IL allows ccw, I figure its about the best I can do...

 

[mercop]

Kingcreek, glad you are OK. You are the first person to have such a story on all the forums I frequent. It does have a place in a layered defense. And it sounds like that is wha you have.

What I see is too often is that someone does not want to carry a firearm so they carry OC or someone wants to give there .........something to carry and they won't carry a knife or a gun. Of course someone with that mindset will not have a layered defense.

 

[TomB7777]

I carry FOX Pepper Spray when I can. Normally I pocket carry a S&W 642, which makes it more difficult to find room in a pocket for the Pepper Spray.

Where I think the spray would be unbeatable is when dealing with young teenagers on the street. If some 14 year old girl is in my face hitting and kicking me, I would prefer not to hit her or wrestle her to the ground. I read about one man who ended up on a sex offender list because he restrained a teenage girl who was assaulting him. Best to hit the kid in the face with the pepper Spray and walk away.

 

[BullfrogKen]

mercop,

I'm going to echo what pax said. OC for the officer with a duty to perform gets used differently than a citizen who has escape as his goal.

Arguing something not already in my hand probably won't get brought to bear when a violent, explosive attack suddenly happens is quite true. However, that could be said about any weapon we carry. Guns get stuffed in pockets and gloveboxes, too. Both are equally worthless if we weren't aware of the attack and got caught flatfooted in an explosive, hands-on confrontation.

OC as used by the citizen is best used as a tool for escape. Spray while bypassing the Violent Criminal Actor. We shouldn't hang around to admire our work, stand our ground, or apprehend him. Its use as a distraction tool for effecting our escape is a good idea. Using it for compliance is a poor idea.


Yeah, I see those threads, "What OC for my girlfriend" all the time, too. That doesn't mean it's totally worthless. It just means someone might be putting too much faith in what it can do.

Personally, I don't carry OC. I'm still rather young, don't have mobility problems, or little children in tow. I carry enough on my belt already and I don't feel like adding OC to it. But I do recognize its utility. I might be sacrificing an option that could help me disengage; I recognize that and I'm OK with it. But I also recognize that it could aid the physically challenged or mother with young children get away from the VCA. Used as a distractor, with the goal of aiding an escape, it can be effective. Yeah, if the VCA pursues, we better be able to bring more to bear than just another blast of OC. But as part of a system, it can be effective.


Denouncing OC as ineffective because impact weapons or blades are better is an unfair comparison. OC can help us avoid the hands-on fight entirely, in the right circumstances. Impact weapons can't. I might suggest impact weapons are equally worthless because those who are old or physically challenged cannot use them effectively in a fight with a young, fit VCA. Different tools, different uses. My hammer isn't good at driving screws, and my screwdriver isn't good at sinking nails.


The only caveat I'd add to my comments are this: More is not better. If you don't train with it, you'll never remember to use it in an encounter. I see guys in Force on Force encounters who carry a light, knife, gun, baton, and OC. Unless the guy actually trained all those tools into his system, he forgot about them. The guy who trained himself to use OC in an appropriate situation used it. The guy who just buys it and never practices scenarios deploying it forgets its there. Maybe he'll go to his gun, or other weapon. Or worse . . . I've seen guys who carry so much crap get bogged down just choosing which one to use. It was clear the reason that crap was carried was they served as talismans to make the practitioner feel better. They weren't trained in using them, and they certainly weren't trained into his self defense system.

If you're going to carry the tool, practice using it. More is not better.

 

[Kingcreek]

To be honest, it was my own mistake that put me at greater risk but I try to keep a better level of awareness and I do have training that could be put to use if hand-to-hand becomes necessary, I just don't want to wrestle junkies if I don't have to- I have no sworn oath and nobody pays me for it.
I was driving in a city where I had attended college years earlier. I got caught up in a mess of construction work and remembered enough of the other streets in the area that I knew I could get around it. What hadn't occured to me was just how drastically a neighborhood could change in 25 years. My doors were locked but it was a beautiful day and I had my window down. also was somewhat distracted and disoriented because it had been so long and I didn't remember as well as I thought. I was waiting for a chance to cross at a 2way stop when the perp saw his opportunity. He jumped onto the running board and hung on the rear-view (trailer mirrors) of my F250 pickup. I actually keep a canister of Fox overhead in the visor and used that, not the one that typically rides in my pocket. My left hand was mostly ineffective as it was on the wheel and also trying to keep his reaching hand from reaching the keys or shifter (I couldn't tell which). His face was probably only 16-2o inches from mine when I hosed him. My right hand with the OC was just past my face. His reaction was immediate. My reaction was less so, I drove 2 blocks but I could not have gone 3.

 

[Jeff White]

And as for uniform LE, get off your lazy ass and learn to use whatever stick you are issued or allowed to carry. It should be your go to tool after empty hand techniques.

I suggest you review all the use of force policies in every agency in the US before you start advocating that officers break them. The force continuum is a matter of policy with every police agency I'm aware of and the majority of the ones I've seen mandate chemical or taser before impact weapons.

It might not be an officer sitting on his/her lazy ass, it may be what's required.

I have NEVER seen OC used by police during a spontaneous or flash attack.

I have used it in one, I'm sorry that you weren't there to witness it, I could have used the backup. I'm arresting a 17 year old kid hopped up on meth for battery. Nice and compliant until the steel hit the wrist and the fight was on. Stunning blow to the chest to take him down and OC to get compliance to finish cuffing him. I suppose I could have drawn my asp and thumped him good to get him to comply, but by that time I had a crowd from the neighborhood standing around and it probably wouldn't have looked good be beating him up when other methods were available.

Of course a few minutes later on the way to the jail he managed to undo the seatbelt, get his arms in front of him and when he couldn't break the lexan in the cage, kicked both windows out of the back of the squad car. A deputy met me on the road, OC was reapplied, we recuffed him behind his back through his belt and took him on to jail. The effects of the OC wore off again and there was a scuffle getting him into the booking area. Later he was put in an interview room on suicide watch and he freaked out and tore up the video equipment, the COs used OC again. He made his worst mistake when he acted out in front of the judge, headbutted a deputy and broke the glass out of the door to the courtroom. Again OC was used. OC took the fight out of him every time.

If you do spray them you still have to go hands on at some point and then they have to go in your car. Again what if you do get cross contaminated? How well can you defend your gun?

This is not an issue for a civilian. A civilian can spray and run. OC has an advantage for the civilian in that it's legal in a lot more places then an impact weapon of any type is.

Jeff

 

[sacp81170a]

pax:

Serious question, but inapplicable to me in any case: I'm severely asthmatic, and don't carry the stuff. But it's an interesting discussion.

Have you given any thought to pepper foam? It doesn't disperse like pepper spray, so there's not as much problem with cross-contamination and overspray. If your plan is to spray and evade, it just might work for you. You'd have to test it very carefully to see if you can tolerate it, but it's a thought. The problem that our jailers have run into is that inmates can scrape it off and fling it back at you, but if you don't have to come in close contact, i.e., you're running away, that might not be an issue.