Cripple rates, low percentage shots.

[Ankeny]

Here's some food for thought. I was visiting with a friend of mine who just happens to be a Game Warden in a fairly large region in my state (Wyoming). He mentioned that he would like to see a state law that would allow a citation to be issued if a game warden saw a person shoot at an animal and then just walk away (assuming a miss) without checking for a blood trail.

I asked him what the approximate loss/cripple rate is on big game animals and I was quite shocked. It seems the loss rate on Pronghorn antelope in Wyoming is approximately the same as the harvest rate. In other words, for every 100 pronghorn that are harvested, another 100 wander off to die a slow and lingering death.

I asked the guy what type of cripple he typically sees, assuming he would answer a crippled leg. Turns out one of the most common crippling injuries are failed head and neck shots. He sees a lot of animals with jaws blown away, shot in the wind pipe, etc.

Please, when you shoot at an animal, walk over to where the critter was standing when you took the shot and take a look. Also, practice what archery hunters already know, the highest percentage killing shot is a double lung shot. If you want to shoot for the head or neck, consider what will happen if you are off just a couple of inches...

 

[Balog]

Wow, I had assumed that a shot at the head/neck area would be a safer shot since it would either be a clean kill or a clean miss. Hmm, food for thought.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I had assumed that a shot at the head/neck area would be a safer shot since it would either be a clean kill or a clean miss. Hmm, food for thought.

Balog,

Yeah the old "you either hit him or missed him" thing on head shots is a total fallacy. I was told the same thing as a youngster. Here's the other thing about a muffed head or neck shot.

If you wound a critter with a head or neck shot they generally don't bleed and if they do the wound isn't severe ebough to slow the critter down so as you can get a second shot.

I"ve always said put the first one into the body at least that way you'll have a blood trail to follow.

 

[Black Dragon]

I was hunting in Montana (mule deer), when my buddy saw a doe with a stick
laying on you rump. We couldn't figure out how the thing didn't fall off.
As we got closer (200 yards vs about 500 or so), the stick turned out to be
an arrow stuck in her rump. We call the warden that night, he told us that
if we saw it again to put it down and not to touch it until he could see it.
We saw the doe and put her down. When we walked up you could smell the infection
from 30 feet way. The warden said he knew who's arrow was stuck in her.
In the past I've shot white tail deer with a 30/30 that would side step then
just stand there, you weren't sure if you hit them or not. Always check to
make sure it was a clean hit or clean miss.

 

[St. Gunner]

H&H,

My dad taught me the behind the shoulder shot, when I turned 20 and started dating my wife her family advocated the head shot on does as not to waste any meat. I never had much trouble with them, probably killed 10-15 does with it, then one morning early I went to shoot a spike off my front porch at about 75yds, took the shot and watched his jaw fall off on 16X. I managed to kill him before he got to the woods, but it wasn't pretty. It was the last headshot I ever took on a deer.

The other major crippler I find is guys trying to slip a round from Ham to heart and lungs. for some reason they don't realize a hard quartering shot you never make it there, that the best shot would be in front of the ham. I think they never play the angle of the animal out in their minds.

I lost my first deer ever this year, shot an old 6pt in the shoulder with what turned out to be a 158gr hydra shok from a .357mag, I thought it was a 158gr softpoint in the cylinder. Smacked him dead center in the shoulder and lost him, found blood for about 100yds then it quit. I found him about a month later, chasing does. Which made me relieved that he hadn't suffered and died, he also earned a lifetime pass from me.

Steve

 

[rust collector]

Thanks for the useful information.

Another consideration these days is chronic wasting disease. Although it's quite rare in these parts, no one wants to take chances with nerve tissue or cerebrospinal fluids. We wear the gloves and exercise a little more caution than we used to.

I know some of my "native guide" deer hunting buddies get a little disgusted when I pass up shots due to the angle or the velocity of the deer, but it's not as if hunting was an ordeal to get over with as soon as possible. I'm usually shooting does, and it's easier to take a pass on one.

 

[c_yeager]

Thats the problem with head shots. If they work they work real good. But, if for whatever reason you dont get a clean kill the resulting wound wont even slow the animal down. With no/little bleeding and a animal that is just as fast as if it wasnt injured is a real hard thing to track down.

 

[Matt G]

I asked the guy what type of cripple he typically sees, assuming he would answer a crippled leg. Turns out one of the most common crippling injuries are failed head and neck shots. He sees a lot of animals with jaws blown away, shot in the wind pipe, etc.

Precisely the reason why it's worth waiting for a good broadside shoulder or behind-the-shoulder shot. While head shots are spectacular, you are shooting at a tiny target that is perched on the tip of the most mobile part of the deer-- it's head. How many times have you been sitting, watching a deer, not even moving, and it for seemingly no reason whipped its head up to look at a sound, real or imagined. They're prey animals, and they learn to live by taking quick scans around them. Meanwhile, the rest of their body is typically stock-still in comparison.

If your rifle fires a round at 3000 fps, and you're shooting at a target 100 yards away, it will take more than 1/10th of a second for the bullet to reach the target (we're ignoring here the reduction in velocity as it moves toward the target). Add to that the lock time of your firearm and, most importantly, your reaction time,from when your eyes see the target move, for your brain to process that, and for your brain to send the message to your finger to "stop squeezing! The target's moved a tad!" It could easily be 1/4 second from when you decide to shoot to when your bullet strikes target a hundred yards off.

Anyone have ANY IDEA how far a deer's head will move in 1/4 second? Look at the muscles on those snaky necks, constantly lowering and raising that head. They can do it fast.

So a higher percentage shot is a better idea. But some people don't like the shoulder/behind the shoulder shot, because it "wastes meat." Uh, friends? You want to talk about wasting meat, watch a 120 lb buck run away with a jaw blown off or a nick to its jugular that will bleed out over the next day, or a concussion from a bullet grazing the skull that will lead to brain swelling. I've never found more than a couple of pounds on any deer's front shoulder. I personally have moved to the shoulder shot. I use well-constructed bullets, and they will break a shoulder if they hit it. Sometimes they go through the shoulder and miss the bone; sometimes they hit bone. Either way, it anchors them cleanly, and takes the lungs.

I used to hold behind the shoulder, but after I hit a couple of deer further back than I wanted (they do, after all, tend to move foreward ), I moved to the shoulder for a larger margin of error. Most well-placed behind-the shoulder shots destoy no meat, or so little as to be negligible.

With the shoulder shot:

• a center hit takes the lungs.
• Too far forward hits the forward shoulder to anchor, or the sternum, which tends to take the wind from their sails.
• Too far to the rear takes the back of the lungs/diaphram, and liver (which is slower, but will bleed him out pretty quickly.)
• Too high hits the spine, for impressive stops, though you lose some good meat.
• Too low takes the heart, which sits lower than most people realize.

All in all, it's a very good shot to take.

Reference my humble diagram, complete with shoulder (yellow), lungs (pink), heart (red), forward liver (brown), and CNS (red lines). The green and blue lines represent esophogus and trachea, both places that would suffer greatly if hit by neck shots, but would certainly not instantly kill.

 

[Ktulu]

Perhaps we should require all deer wear Matt G's diagram.

IMO, the biggest crippler, besides sheer incompetence, is the pressure to be successful. Whether it comes from buddies or you impose it on yourself. Hunting shouldn't be a competition. The second to last thing I want is to sit in the woods stressing out over whether I'm gonna get something or not. The last thing I want is to wound some animal because I'm not patient or competent enough. My survival doesn't depend on killing a deer and respect from others doesn't depend on how many animals I've killed.

You can always get closer and you can always wait for the next one no matter what it cost to get out there.

 

[Matt G]

Perhaps we should require all deer wear Matt G's diagram.

That's what I've been advocating for years!

Great point, BTW, about the self-imposed pressure to succeed in the field. I went hunting in Georgia this December (Yes, yes, I'm aware that a Texan going to Georgia to hunt deer is akin to bringing coal to Newcastle. But I was going to visit with some good online friends.). Getting there, we killed the transmission in my father's SUV and had it rebuilt in Louisiana. When we finally arrived, people weren't seeing any deer anymore. Several deer had been taken before we arrived, but they just weren't turning up anymore. Finally, one morning, I was sitting in a tree just before the sun has made it up full. The sky was overcast, there was a heavy frost on the ground making everything grayish, and the light was very dim as I saw three gray shapes moving across the field in front of me. I realized, looking through binoculars, that they were three deer, about 100 yards ahead of me. Looking at my watch, I realize that it was legal shooting time. I readied my Springfield '03, peered through the rear peep sight at the bead-on-post front sight, and tried to get a good sight picture on the deer. With the silvery-gray deer against the silvery-gray frost-covered field in the diffused light of the early dawn, there simply wasn't enough contrast for me to see the deer clearly enough be certain of doing better than merely to "hit it in the deer."

Now, in broad daylight with a well-defined target, I can take that load and rifle with those sights and give you 3" groups on demand at one hundred yards, and sub 2" if I have a good rest like sandbags. But that morning, I turned down a shot at three does slowly browsing their way across a wide open field at about one hundred yards. I came back and reported this, and all at camp threw up their hands. But you know what? Not one of them lost any respect for me because I chose to hold my shot.

On the way back, the rebuilt transmission died again. After it was rebuilt, it died again! We brought home no venison.

And still, it was a successful hunt!

 

[NRA4LIFE]

I'm not surprised at the percentages, but I guess I'm a little surprised at where your game warden friend reported the majority of pronghorn injuries (bullet inflicted that is). I've seen my share of pronghorn and almost all the cripples I've seen suffered from one of 2 types of misplaced shots. Both of these can be attributed to inexperienced hunters, IMO. The first is in the hind quarters somewhere. I would guess that's from people shooting at running animals and not leading them far enough. (I don't advocate shooting at them on the run) I don't think a lot of people who hunt pronghorn have even a clue as to how fast they can run. The second is low in one the front quarters. I know firsthand how that happens. People go out on the prairie and cannot judge distances and take way too long of a shot. Bullet drops a foot or more and said pronghorn is hit in the lower portion of one of his front quarters. Sadly, I did that once. However, a partner of mine killed that buck a couple days later so I was exonerated.

As to taking head shots? Never have, never will, no way, no how.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've killed a bunch of deer with neck shots, but I'd venture that none of them were over 100 yards off. Once you start talking serious distance, I'm happy to go for that heart/lung hit.

Antelope? My father was an exceptional shot. He called neck shots on deer at extreme ranges in front of witnesses and hit. He called running shots and hit more than one high-speed buck. I watched him punch the white spot on a buck, offhand, at a good 250 yards. But, the first time he held on a running antelope, the bullet hit the ground behind the animal. "Education" is a good word for his experience.

Some people never learn...

Art

 

[Ankeny]

The stats only apply to Pronghorn. He told me, "People treat antelope like trash."

I think the problem stems from all of the doe/fawn permits that are issued as additional permits. Folks go a field with the intent of shooting a couple of antelope to turn into jerky and sausage. They don't want to ruin the meat so they shoot for the head or neck. The numbers are no doubt significantly different for mature buck antelope.

I suppose posting this here is like preaching to the choir because most of the forum members are no doubt ethical hunters. The real problems come from the slob hunter who we all despise.

 

[Delmar]

I guess that I just don't understand why a hunter would not check for a hit/blood trail after taking a shot. My own experience taught me to do so after shooting at a broadside 8 point a measured 150 odd yards away, which promptly took off at the sound of the shot.

He did not act in any way like he had been hit-no jumping or anything like it. Still, I waited about 15 minutes and got out of my hide and went to where he had been. Saw a few drops of blood and looked in the direction he had been running. Nicely piled up about 10 yards behind a salt cedar. The 150 grain ballistic tip out of my 308 did not expand much. A .30 caliber hole on one side and a dime sized hole on the other.
But, it put a hole in both lungs and that was all it took. I had been hunting for a few years with the Nosler BT's and that was the first time I did not get any expansion out of one of those bullets.

Still, a killing shot.

I have since told myself not to depend on a bullet to expand-sure is nice if they do, but I treat every shot I take like I'm using FMJ's. And, thanks to the sage advise of "Sir Eatman", I stopped buying those expensive bullets and use a generic Hornady soft point, which kills a hill country white tail just as dead, and I get twice the handloads for about the same price-thanks for the tip, Art

PS-they also work on the feral pigs really well, too!

 

[Art Eatman]

I got to thinking some more about all this while watching the twin 125s at Daytona.

Talking about "hitting too far back" when taking a heart shot or hitting the windpipe when trying a neckshot, it sorta seems that some folks get a brown color in the scope and pull trigger.

That is, you should be trying to hit where the spine is, in a deer's neck, not just the "in the neck". You should be trying specifically for the heart, rather than just low and behind the foreleg in the brown area.

If you can hit the center of a two- or three-inch bull on paper, why not try to center the same imagined target on a deer or antelope or whatever?

This means studying Matt's diagram, natcherly, so you know where the goody is.

, Art

 

[cracked butt]

I've always been taught to shoot right behind the shoulder. This last der season, I did that and ended up with a deer shot high in the guts as it took a step down a hill as I pulled the trigger. 3 hrs of tracking and I found the deer, but it was a mess.

I'm really considering what MattG is advocating with shooting on the center of the shoulder- it makes better sense no matter how you lok at it.


Shots at running deer- these I'll never take unless the deer is wounded. I shot at a running deer target at a gun club a few years ago, it was a very humbling experience. the deer ran across the field of view on a wire, bouncing as it went, when it got behind the baricade, it was turned around and sent back the other direction. In the 4 shots I got off, I had 2 misses, I shot in the hind quarters, and one low at midbody. I made this poor performance after shooting at the same stationary target hitting the 6" kill circle 5 out of 5 times offhand at 100 yards.