Shot placement revisited

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H&Hhunter

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Shot Placement, what does that really mean?

It means different things for different people but the plain and simple answer is putting your projectile into the vital killing zone of the animal.

And it all depends on what a person is shooting and what type of bullets they're using as to what the position of the animal should be.

If you are a big bore guy it doesn't really matter which direction the animal is facing. A 270 gr .375 or a 250 gr .338 etc, etc in a solidly built bullet will reach the vitals of any animal in North America from any angle. All one has to do is imagine a basket ball between the front shoulders and make sure your bullet is going to hit that ball.

A true dangerous game round is capable of reaching the vitals on any animal on the planet from any angle. PERIOD.

I often hear people say I can't believe these African hunting videos, those guys were taking Texas heart shots on those animals while they were running away.

YES after the first shot on a nicely broadside facing DG animal you'd better be shooting him as long as you can see him and he's still standing. Then give him a few more after he's down.

I've got a very nice collection of solids and softs that I've collected from the north end of south running buffalo. A .458Lott or a .470NE will punch a solid or an X for that matter, all the way through a buff length wise and you usually find the bullet in the skin on the off side if it didn't exit.


On deer and elk we tend not to shoot at them after the first shot because we don't want to ruin meat. I think this is the reason why many animals are lost each year. If you are shooting a capable caliber (such as a .30-06 with 180gr bullets on deer) a Texas heart shot will in fact make it to the vitals possibly saving you long hour of tracking.

I am not suggesting that you take a rear facing shot on the first round. Rather I am suggesting that you use a cartridge capable of penetrating the vitals from less than ideal angles because in the real world stuff happens more often that most will admit.

Part two

We as Americans are sold on the idea of the behind the shoulder placement. This is because we fear meat loss and our ancestors used muzzle loader which would not always reliably penetrate bone. This shot has become ingrained in our brains from hunter yore of our mountain men ancestors.

I shoot them further forward and higher than most Americans do because I’ve seen how well it works in Africa, and guess what boys and girls? It works just the same here. Drops critters like a lightening bolt, still gets the top of the heart and lungs and there is no tracking with two broken shoulders.

Meat damage is really not as bad as you'd expect if you are using a cartridge of reasonable velocity. even if you are using a eargasplitzenloudenboomer you are hitting them in a place that doesn't carry much useable meat in the first place.

Just my humble opinion.

Greg


WARNING NONE OF THIS STUFF APPLIES TO BOWHUNTERS (That is whole other ball game!) :)
 
I'll keep this in mind when hunting deer with my .375 H&H this year. Muzzle-loading season happens to fall when I will be in Hawaii, so I'll be out with some friends during "regular" season. Should be interesting.
 
I shoot them further forward and higher than most Americans do because I’ve seen how well it works in Africa, and guess what boys and girls? It works just the same here. Drops critters like a lightening bolt, still gets the top of the heart and lungs and there is no tracking with two broken shoulders.
That paragraph is a keeper (says a guy looking 30-06 & .308's as a tools for protein acquisition).

If I may suggest, from a purely biological (not experiential) perspective, the only place to drop protein (in the form of white tail, mule deer, antelope, elk...) more quickly would be brain.

Run 150 to 180 gr. of metal through the CPU, and it's unlikely that said animal will run very far. Plus, "meat" destruction is minimal (unless you like brains and eggs, which means you grew up in the south like me. ;) )

Admittedly, a head shot at > 25 yds has lower probability of sucess than a high, anterior shoulder shot, so I'd probably go for the later. Meat in the camp pot with garlic, onion & potatoes beats canned sardines anyday.

Given that, I'd go with the advice offered in H&H's post: forward & high. Shoulder skeleton & musculature. Without that particular set of bones (scapula, clavicle, upper humerus) & muscles (trapezius, deltoids, pectoralis major, pectoralis minor...), it's unlikely that said large mammal will run more than a few feet.

Stew anyone? Who brought the microbrew?
 
If I may suggest, from a purely biological (not experiential) perspective, the only place to drop protein (in the form of white tail, mule deer, antelope, elk...) more quickly would be brain.


Nematocyst-870


A true statement sir. I am not , however, a proponent of the head or neck shot due to the very real possibility of a non bleeding wound if the "cpu" or the spine aren't hit. Which is a very real possibility with either shot.

Just last night after I wrote this I read an article written by a Zimbabwe PH who did some testing for the game department.

A heart shot animal can be expected to run full speed for approximately 8 seconds after being hit and lung shot which hits a major artery can be expected to run 10 second at a full stride before dropping.

Think about how much ground a deer can cover in 10 seconds at full flight speed.

Another portion of the study was how long it takes an animal to start leaving a blood trail after being struck with a bullet. even with an exit wound it was found to take up to 200 yards at full stride before the wound produced any blood on the ground. I thought that was a very interesting find.

After making that shot first watch where the animal went. Shot again if possible. And follow for a while it may take some time for the blood to start flowing.

Greg
 
I heartily agree. I killed my biggest buck ever last year with a .44 mag and only had a high shoulder shot. I took him high and more forward than I usually would, and he went down like a ton of bricks.

When hunting whitetails with a rifle, I have begun to lean strongly toward neck shots, even when a perfect broadside shoulder shot is presented. My instant-drop rate is 100% on probably 10-12 deer with this shot. Also, when the deer is facing me, a straight-on neck shot is also devastating. Killed two does with this shot in the last 3 years.
 
When the range is close enough that I feel confident, I take the neck shot. So far, I'm 100%. I dunno. 100 or 125 yards; something like that.

Otherwise, my heart/lung hits have never had me trailing over 50 yards; usually within 20 or so. On smaller whitetails, of some 120 pounds field-dressed weight, a cross body hit from an '06 is like a Peckinpaugh movie: You can see blood fly out the far side.

But I've not hunted anything bigger than whitetails and west Texas mule deer that rarely dress out above 150 to 175 pounds. The idea of breaking down the shoulders makes very good sense to me. Some places, you just really don't want to have to go tracking. Or have to pull that elk back up from the bottom of the valley he ran down into. :)

Best is to get real close, wait til he steps into the jeep trail and then break the spine right behind the ears. :D

Art
 
Best is to get real close, wait til he steps into the jeep trail and then break the spine right behind the ears.

Art,

When I first moved up to Alaska I was sitting in a local waterin hole talking about hunting and guns and airplanes and women and such. An old grizzled hunter looks over at me and says "you know where to shoot a moose don't ya son?" I replied "in the shoulder."

He just laughed shook his head and said, "no boy, shoot em as close to the boat as possible!" :D :D
 
I too am a strong proponent of breaking the front shoulders, or at least one. It seems that whenever you strike bone in the shoulder blade bone assembly, that critter is in a world of hurt, I don't care what his name is. Seems like the bone fragments often times do as much damage to the vitals as the bullet.
 
I shoot them further forward and higher than most Americans do because I’ve seen how well it works in Africa, and guess what boys and girls? It works just the same here.

Especially with elk, I try to break a shoulder. Wounded elk, even mortally wounded, will lead you into some of the most horrible places you can imagine. I always imagine I hear them somewhere in the heavens above chuckling as I try to pack several hundred pounds of meat up a slope so steep I can hardly stand up.

I also like a heavy caliber and a premium bullet. My choice is Bigfoot Wallace, my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen, which drives a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket to an honest 2800 fps.

With conditions perfectly right, I once broke both shoulders on a bull elk (he still fell about a hundred feet down the mountain, dang him!)

As a rule of thumb, on a broadside shot, aim for the near shoulder and hope to get both. On a quartering toward you, aim for the point of the near shoulder and drive through to the pump room. On a quartering away shot, aim to shoot through the body and break the far shoulder.

I do a lot of practice with my Kimber M82 in .22 LR, and I work the bolt from the shoulder. I ingrain in myself automatic bolt action -- so when I shoot, the rifle is reloaded when it comes down from recoil. And if there's still something to shoot at -- I shoot at it.
 
Vern,

A true rifleman and a hunter you are sir!!

I couldn't agree more concept for concept.

Now please enlighten me on the .35 Brown Whelen I am thinking that I need one of those in a cute mauser style mountain rifle to go along with my pre 64 M-70.358!! Please my curiosity is overwhelming me.

Greg
 
From "Handloader, Ammuntion Reloading Journal"
issue #193, June 1998. Copyright Wolfe Publishing, & Mark Harris Publishing Inc.

"The .35 Brown-Whelen, dates to 1967, when JGS Precision Tool Mfg. of Coos Bay, Oregon, manufactured a reamer patterned from a case supplied by Keith Stegall. Apparently C. Norman Brown of Anchorage, Alaska, came up with the dimensions. The Brown-Whelen hasn't been very popular, partly because it looks like a cartridge for thickets when current headlines play to the quick medium-bores. A complicated case-forming procedure doesn't help its standing either. You must first expand a .30-06 neck to .375 or .400 inch, then neck it back down to .358 to establish the proper shoulder and fireform. (The .40-caliber expander is my choice because it ensures a positive stop.) An alternative is to neck the case up to .358 inch, then seat bullets hard against the lands to maintain proper headspace dulling fire-forming. Neither procedure is all that difficult, but both can seem a lot of trouble to shooters not familiar or comfortable with wildcatting.

Handloader No.187 carried a feature article on the .35 Brown-Whelen. In it, author Richard Conrad wrote that he could not duplicate with his rifle the performance that P.O. Ackley ascribed to this cartridge. According to Richard, Ackley claimed 2,900 fps from a 220grain bullet in front of 70 grains of IMR-4320, 2,700 fps from a 250-grain bullet ldcked along by 71 grains of 1MR4350 and 2,595 fps with a 300-grain round nose and 68 grains of 1MR4350. The Brown-Whelen case will not readily accommodate 70 grains of stick powder and a long bullet!"


Seems like too much trouble compared to a standard .35 Whelen. Is there an Elk alive that can tell the difference? However, for a nice project on those cold winter days . . ..

Greg, how did the double rifle championships go?? I'm still meaning to call, but I have been slammed at work.




Scott
 
Now please enlighten me on the .35 Brown Whelen

Actually, it's not that complicated. The .35 B-W is the most radical form of the Whelen, with less taper, and with the shoulder moved well forward and sharpened. Cases fire-formed in my custom '03 have about 13% more case capacity than the '06 case.

Since the '03 (and your Mauser) are controlled-feed, my method of case forming is to charge a case with about 10 grains of Bullseye (you may have to adjust to your rifle), plug the case mouth with a quarter sheet of toilet paper and feed the case through the magazine and pull the trigger. BANG! And there's a fire-formed case.

Since the '03 action is proven safe for the .300 Win Mag, I load to .300 Win Mag pressures. (I also have a La Porte 3-position safety on this rifle, which include a new bolt shroud with a Mauser-type gas flange.)

I get just over 2800 fps with the 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket.

I know of no really reliable loading data for the .35 Brown-Whelen. This is because the cartridge is a wildcat -- no one can be sure your chamber and mine are matches. I recommend starting with .35 Whelen loading data and working up.
 
When I read the case forming proceedure, my first thought was why not just fire form it. Nice to know that makes sense.

which drives a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket to an honest 2800 fps.

What's that, about 300 fps faster than a standard Whelen? If case forming is that simple, makes more sense than I originally thought.




Scott
 
TaxPhd said:
When I read the case forming proceedure, my first thought was why not just fire form it. Nice to know that makes sense.

That's if you have a rifle with controlled round feed -- a Mauser, Springfield, Winchester or Ruger MKII. If you have a push-feed, you have to go through the rigamarole of overexpanding, making a false shoulder, and so on.

Now ask me why I like controlled round feed.:p

TaxPhd said:
What's that, about 300 fps faster than a standard Whelen? If case forming is that simple, makes more sense than I originally thought.

It makes a lot of sense -- the downside is that I can't justify buying a .338 Win Mag or a .375 H&H. My .35 B-W does anything they will do.;)
 
TaxPhd. Greg said:
Scott,

Ditto on the call brother. I am sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet. I do have time next week if you are available. Give me a call if you still want to shoot the H&H. (PM)sent.

The double rifle national championship went FANTASTIC! I haven't posted anything about it here as I didn't think anyone would be interested. Butch is going to post the story and results on ARL when he gets all the information together.

I didn't shoot as well as I'd liked to. I came in third overall. Some really good things came out of the shoot. I've been offered a spot and sponsorship with one of the major double rifle makers here in the US. No names until it's official but you can probably guess who it is. There were some other really neat things that happened as well in regards to some big stuff. Maybe you'll hear about it soon! I hope so anyway.

So overall the shoot was a great success!

Greg


Vern,
I've got a spare stainless M-70 action down stairs just waiting for a cool project. I think we may have just rung the dinner bell. Thank you sir for your input and information.

Greg
 
H&Hhunter said:
I've been offered a spot and sponsorship with one of the major double rifle makers here in the US.

Sponsorship . . . Maybe an Underlever .500 N.E. to put through its paces on your next Africa trip? :evil:




Scott
 
Scott,

Well.......

I did shoot an under lever .500NE snap action at the shoot. I also got to shoot a sweet little .450/400NE and a full blown original falling block 8 bore.

Check out the 8 bore. And yes it kicks!

Butches8bore.jpg
 
Thats all lovely

I've read some good advise in this thread; I just wanted the say that I think Its wonderful to see that people are paying a lot mot attention on shot placement than lets say 10 yares ago.... Lets just remember,,, We also must keep in mind that Your Shot will not mean or do much if you've passed your climax of the bullet velocity and yout bullet is slowing down -It will not kill your animal ( at least the way you want it to)
For that reason I keep my shots under 800 yards when I'm hunting. I make sure that I hit the Killzone and my bullet is traveling over 1000fps.
 
killzone said:
I've read some good advise in this thread; I just wanted the say that I think Its wonderful to see that people are paying a lot mot attention on shot placement than lets say 10 yares ago.... Lets just remember,,, We also must keep in mind that Your Shot will not mean or do much if you've passed your climax of the bullet velocity and yout bullet is slowing down -It will not kill your animal ( at least the way you want it to)
For that reason I keep my shots under 800 yards when I'm hunting. I make sure that I hit the Killzone and my bullet is traveling over 1000fps.


Killzone,

You are obviously a far more accomplished rifleman than I if you are shooting at game past 400.

I've killed game at 400+ on several occasions but I consider it a trick which shouldn't be tried by men of my meager skills and experience. The vast majority of my shots are under 300 with most of those under 200 and the majority of my kills are under 100 yards.

I do not have the equipment or training to make long range 400+ yard shots on game animals.

Greg
 
Two problems with this long-range stuff: First is knowing the distance close enough to not be off more than a couple of inches of bullet drop. Next is doping the wind. I've been startled at what even a "light breeze" can do out around 500 to 550.

The first time I shot on my 500-yard range with my '06, the "light breeze" from my left necessitated holding two feet left of the center of the 22" plate. I've always figured that my hitting the centerline of the plate on the first shot was as lucky a guess as I've ever made.

Art
 
Well, a boat-tailed bullet from an '06 is about four feet of drop at 500 yards. What, twelve feet or more at 700 to 800?

Reminds me of the guy who told me of his 500-yard kill, one time. I asked how high he held over the buck. "Aw, I just laid it on his back. This rifle shoots flat!"

:D:D:D

Art
 
Reminds me of the guy who told me of his 500-yard kill, one time. I asked how high he held over the buck. "Aw, I just laid it on his back. This rifle shoots flat!"

I don't mean to offend anyone, and this remark isn't addressed at anyone in particular.

But every 500 yard shot I've paced out (and that's more than one) has turned out to be less than 200 yards.:p
 
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