I don't think I have ever shot a deer at more than 150 yds. For my 30-06, sighting in at 100 yds, I would be hitting 6.6 feet low at 500, and 22 feet low at 800 yds. No way would I be able to judge that, and windage too, especially with aging eyesight. Reminds me of when I was a kid and we used to practice with BB guns hitting ants on the sidewalk at 10 feet. There was skill involved but luck also had a lot to do with it along with multiple shots.
Shot placement revisited
- Thread starter H&Hhunter
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AStone
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a scholarly thread
H&Hhunter & others,
This is a very interesting and useful thread for me. Thanks. I've been away from hunting for years, and the last time I hunted - as a teen & early 20's guy - I didn't study such topics as this much. Now it seems much more relevant ... AND interesting. (Part of my interest lies in the fact that I'm a biologist with more knowledge of the organs & tissues being shot at than how to shoot them...but thanks to more knowledgeable folks like you, I'm gaining on the latter.
Just for the record, I was also agreeing with you in my original post, even if perhaps I didn't articulate it quite well enough. My point was that IF (a low probability event) one could hit a head more easily than a shoulder with high probability (let's say in a hypothetical situation where the head of the animal was 2' closer to you than its shoulders, and closing in at a velocity of 10' per second), THEN a head shot (actually, of course, brain shot) may be the better option. Otherwise, I'm definitely in your school of thought.
I'm also firmly in your camp (actually, probably more Oldnamvet's camp) when it comes to distance. I've been reading lots of threads in rifle country about (approximately) .30 cal rifles (.30-30, .35, .308, -'06...) because within coming months I'm planning to purchase one. As I've explained in another thread, I foolishly sold my Marlin 336 in .35 a number of years ago during a financial crunch while trying to finish grad school. It was the only rifle larger than a .22 I ever owned (well, OK, there was the .58 Springfield caplock, but ...)
Now, I want another rifle. I am considering another Marlin 336 in either .30-30 or .35, but am lusting for .308 & 30-06 also. In addition to numerous other factors in the decision, I'm considering effective range & accuracy with that range.
Again, that's one reason I'm finding interest in this thread.
Personally, I doubt that I'd attempt a hunting shot longer than 100-150 yds, regardless of what rifle I wind up with. (Unless in some future-primitive scenario, I found myself desparately hungry...). I don't have the skills, and for the time being, am unlikely to be able to spend the time developing them in the near future. But, of course, even at 50 yds, shot placement is very important.
Hey, I'm guessing from some of your signature lines - not to mention that "8 bore"
- that you hunt <ahem> LARGE game in Africa.
(By the way, could someone offer a word about what, exactly, an "8 bore" is. I get a bunch of hits on Google for "8 bore rifle", but nothing descriptive for the rifle-undereducated like me.)
Being a large game hunter with an appreciation of the feeling of not being at the top of the food chain, have you ever heard of entelodonts? They lived in my region about 30 - 35 million years ago. Fortunately, they only exist now as fossils, because some were the size of rhinos, and had head lengths in the 1 meter range. They were omnivores, feeding on vegetation, carrion and - according to a description on a self-guided tour sign in John Day Fossil Beds N'tional Monument - "any small mammals that got in their way".
Relative to one of those, I'd be a small mammal.
If I ever meet one running rapidly in my direction with a look in its eye that says I'm dinner, I'll take an 8 bore and a head shot for 50, please, Alex.
I look forward to learning more about shot placement in this thread.
Nem
H&Hhunter & others,
This is a very interesting and useful thread for me. Thanks. I've been away from hunting for years, and the last time I hunted - as a teen & early 20's guy - I didn't study such topics as this much. Now it seems much more relevant ... AND interesting. (Part of my interest lies in the fact that I'm a biologist with more knowledge of the organs & tissues being shot at than how to shoot them...but thanks to more knowledgeable folks like you, I'm gaining on the latter.
Good points, H&H. I agree.
Just for the record, I was also agreeing with you in my original post, even if perhaps I didn't articulate it quite well enough. My point was that IF (a low probability event) one could hit a head more easily than a shoulder with high probability (let's say in a hypothetical situation where the head of the animal was 2' closer to you than its shoulders, and closing in at a velocity of 10' per second), THEN a head shot (actually, of course, brain shot) may be the better option. Otherwise, I'm definitely in your school of thought.
I'm also firmly in your camp (actually, probably more Oldnamvet's camp) when it comes to distance. I've been reading lots of threads in rifle country about (approximately) .30 cal rifles (.30-30, .35, .308, -'06...) because within coming months I'm planning to purchase one. As I've explained in another thread, I foolishly sold my Marlin 336 in .35 a number of years ago during a financial crunch while trying to finish grad school. It was the only rifle larger than a .22 I ever owned (well, OK, there was the .58 Springfield caplock, but ...)
Now, I want another rifle. I am considering another Marlin 336 in either .30-30 or .35, but am lusting for .308 & 30-06 also. In addition to numerous other factors in the decision, I'm considering effective range & accuracy with that range.
Again, that's one reason I'm finding interest in this thread.
Personally, I doubt that I'd attempt a hunting shot longer than 100-150 yds, regardless of what rifle I wind up with. (Unless in some future-primitive scenario, I found myself desparately hungry...). I don't have the skills, and for the time being, am unlikely to be able to spend the time developing them in the near future. But, of course, even at 50 yds, shot placement is very important.
Hey, I'm guessing from some of your signature lines - not to mention that "8 bore"
- that you hunt <ahem> LARGE game in Africa. (By the way, could someone offer a word about what, exactly, an "8 bore" is. I get a bunch of hits on Google for "8 bore rifle", but nothing descriptive for the rifle-undereducated like me.)
Being a large game hunter with an appreciation of the feeling of not being at the top of the food chain, have you ever heard of entelodonts? They lived in my region about 30 - 35 million years ago. Fortunately, they only exist now as fossils, because some were the size of rhinos, and had head lengths in the 1 meter range. They were omnivores, feeding on vegetation, carrion and - according to a description on a self-guided tour sign in John Day Fossil Beds N'tional Monument - "any small mammals that got in their way".
Relative to one of those, I'd be a small mammal.
If I ever meet one running rapidly in my direction with a look in its eye that says I'm dinner, I'll take an 8 bore and a head shot for 50, please, Alex.
I look forward to learning more about shot placement in this thread.
Nem
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Nem,
I've done a fair piece of hunting large game in Africa.
If this qualifies in your book.
Or this.
As far as the 8 bore goes. This rifle is a single shot falling block black powder cartridge gun built in London by a Wilkins & co in 1862.(I believe I could be wrong but that is what my feeble memory is feeding me) The exact history of the weapon is not known.
The weapon fires .820 cal 1250gr or a 1400gr conical lead bullet at somewhere approaching 1500fps. The weapon was obviously built to tackle the largest game, elephants most likely.
Of course the king of the heavy black powder heavy rifles was the 4 bore firing a 2000 gr lead bullet at nearly 1600 fps often times using an explosive projectile much like a whaling canon.
There was also a 2 bore rifle known as a "cape gun" and I know that there was also a cartridge version of this monster but I really don't know the specs.
The bore system is an old English measurement which divides a pound of lead into equal parts dependant on diameter. E.G. 12 balls to a pound a 12 bore do make 10 balls to a pound a 10 bore or more commonly a 10 gauge ETC ETC.
As far as entelodonts go I've seen a representation of one at the Denver Mueseum of Natural History. Of course my first thought was my .470NE would be a wonderfull rifle for "ente" hunting and I wonder how much the trophy fee would be?
My wife hates going to the zoo or the museums with me........
PS
For a full report on the pictures above you can go to the search function and find my thread on hunting the Zambezi from last year. Maybe somone a bit more savy can post the link for us.
I've done a fair piece of hunting large game in Africa.
If this qualifies in your book.
Or this.
As far as the 8 bore goes. This rifle is a single shot falling block black powder cartridge gun built in London by a Wilkins & co in 1862.(I believe I could be wrong but that is what my feeble memory is feeding me) The exact history of the weapon is not known.
The weapon fires .820 cal 1250gr or a 1400gr conical lead bullet at somewhere approaching 1500fps. The weapon was obviously built to tackle the largest game, elephants most likely.
Of course the king of the heavy black powder heavy rifles was the 4 bore firing a 2000 gr lead bullet at nearly 1600 fps often times using an explosive projectile much like a whaling canon.
There was also a 2 bore rifle known as a "cape gun" and I know that there was also a cartridge version of this monster but I really don't know the specs.
The bore system is an old English measurement which divides a pound of lead into equal parts dependant on diameter. E.G. 12 balls to a pound a 12 bore do make 10 balls to a pound a 10 bore or more commonly a 10 gauge ETC ETC.
As far as entelodonts go I've seen a representation of one at the Denver Mueseum of Natural History. Of course my first thought was my .470NE would be a wonderfull rifle for "ente" hunting and I wonder how much the trophy fee would be?
My wife hates going to the zoo or the museums with me........
PS
For a full report on the pictures above you can go to the search function and find my thread on hunting the Zambezi from last year. Maybe somone a bit more savy can post the link for us.
mmmm OK
''For that reason I keep my shots under 800 yards when I'm hunting. ''
If the rage is 799 yards that does not mean I would take the shot... All I was depicting was that You have to know your ammo and be sure of your field conditions... I use a 300 Wea Mag for my long rage gun. I also try to keep my Zero @ 200 yards. I use quality ammo - That makes a huge difference when it comes to accuracy and stability of your ammo.
The reason I originally wanted to talk about the rage and the velocity of your shot is that It is an essential criteria in measurements of your Shot Placement,,, Its Not just where you pick to hit; Its what you take in account. To make the long story short, Its like to say " even if you hit the animal perfect_ what will your bullet do when it hits?"
''For that reason I keep my shots under 800 yards when I'm hunting. ''
If the rage is 799 yards that does not mean I would take the shot... All I was depicting was that You have to know your ammo and be sure of your field conditions... I use a 300 Wea Mag for my long rage gun. I also try to keep my Zero @ 200 yards. I use quality ammo - That makes a huge difference when it comes to accuracy and stability of your ammo.
The reason I originally wanted to talk about the rage and the velocity of your shot is that It is an essential criteria in measurements of your Shot Placement,,, Its Not just where you pick to hit; Its what you take in account. To make the long story short, Its like to say " even if you hit the animal perfect_ what will your bullet do when it hits?"
AStone
Member
Buffs & Boa Babs
Deleted. Somehow, I wound up with a double post. (See below.) Must be the new forum software that was installed a few days ago...I'm still trying to figure out the edit function.
Nem.
Deleted. Somehow, I wound up with a double post. (See below.) Must be the new forum software that was installed a few days ago...I'm still trying to figure out the edit function.
Nem.
AStone
Member
Buffs & Boa Babs
H&H, thanks for the description of the 8 bore. I sort of figured it was old, but didn't have much idea of how much so.
That's some cape buffalo. Such massive beasts. Amazing to think that much biomass can be up and running around. Wow.
I'll confess a bit of personal bias as a biologist. Please don't take this as any type of negative comment on elephant hunting. It's not at all. I fully understand that the elephants are overpopulating now, and enjoyed and respected your story in the Zambia thread about the value of elephant hunts to cull the herd, provide food & resources (e.g., hide) for the locals, etc.
Having said that, speaking ONLY for myself, somehow, I think I'd find it easier to shoot a buffalo than an elephant. Relatively speaking, the elephants seem so ... intelligent. They have such incredible behavior. In fact, I'm wondering: do you find their intelligence and social behavior to make hunting them more challenging? (Not to derail the theme of this thread...)
Again, just to reiterate, NO criticism there at all. I realize and respect the reason for hunting them.
Here ya go.
Good stories & pics in there, H&H. Thanks for sharing both.
Interestingly, one of the most impressive pics is that Boa Bab tree. Sheesh, what a life form.
Regards,
Nem
H&H, thanks for the description of the 8 bore. I sort of figured it was old, but didn't have much idea of how much so.
That's some cape buffalo. Such massive beasts. Amazing to think that much biomass can be up and running around. Wow.
I'll confess a bit of personal bias as a biologist. Please don't take this as any type of negative comment on elephant hunting. It's not at all. I fully understand that the elephants are overpopulating now, and enjoyed and respected your story in the Zambia thread about the value of elephant hunts to cull the herd, provide food & resources (e.g., hide) for the locals, etc.
Having said that, speaking ONLY for myself, somehow, I think I'd find it easier to shoot a buffalo than an elephant. Relatively speaking, the elephants seem so ... intelligent. They have such incredible behavior. In fact, I'm wondering: do you find their intelligence and social behavior to make hunting them more challenging? (Not to derail the theme of this thread...)
Again, just to reiterate, NO criticism there at all. I realize and respect the reason for hunting them.
H&Hhunter said:
Here ya go.
Good stories & pics in there, H&H. Thanks for sharing both.
Interestingly, one of the most impressive pics is that Boa Bab tree. Sheesh, what a life form.
Regards,
Nem
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killzone said:
Killzone,
Good question!
No, the size of a mature elephant is dependant on location and subspecies more than anything, this is actually a huge old cow for the area. The Zambezi elephant tend to be smaller in stature than their Kalahari cousins to the west.
Also all normal elephants are born with tusks. For some reason in the Zambezi valley there is an abnormally high incident of tusk less elephants. This is a genetic defect and these elephants are culled whenever possible.
Also tusk less elephants are psychopathic. They do not fit into the herd dynamics and are picked on by other elephants as they don't have tusks to fight back with, they become extremely aggressive by nature and are considered the most dangerous of all elephants to hunt.
Cows in general are far more dangerous to hunt than old bulls because they will always be found in a herd. The herd will protect each other and group charges are not uncommon. Many time the elephants will systematically try and hunt their tormentors down by spreading out and working a grid pattern to cut the hunters wind. Quite terrifying I can tell you.
BUT to answer your question the way you estimate an elephants age is by general appearance tattered ears etc, and the degree to which the hollows behind the eyes are sunken in. As an elephant ages it wears out it's teeth and it becomes less efficient at digestion.
The elephant starts to slowly starve to death as it ages. The tell tale sign of an old elephant are the hollowed out temples behind the eyes.
This old cow which I shot on a cull only non-trophy license I.E. everything stays and the local villages get the carcass was on her last set on molars which were worn smooth. She was estimated to be between 45 and 50 years old.
An ancient old cow and a great choice for a cull animal due to her bad genetics.
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Nematocyst-870 said:
Quite the contrary sir, I am in full agreement,
I also find it much easier to hunt and kill a wild oxen than an elephant. elephants are extremely intelligent and their social behavior is very easy to anthropomorphize.
Elephants can be very difficult to hunt and like I mentioned in the above post will actually use group tactics and maneuver as a team to hunt down and kill their tormentors.
If an elephant ever gets a hold of you it's a 100% chance of your death. I can only ever remember reading once or twice about a man surviving being savaged by an enraged elephant and those were just pure flukes.
My first trip over to Africa I was like the vast majority of hunters and felt much the way you do now. I wouldn't have even considered hunting elephants.
But the more time I spent in Africa and more denuded landscape I'd seen from overpopulated elephants and the more time I spent around these not so gentle beasts the more it became acceptable to me to hunt them.
I'd still not consider myself an elephant hunter As I really don't have the desire to drop a small fortune to shoot a huge old tusker. But I would shoot either another tusk-less or P.A.C. (Problem animal control) AKA man killer or crop raider. The benefits that the local communities derive from such a kill in the form of protein leather and license fee's are the very fiber that will keep elephants from being poached into extinction in the future. Not to mention a very useful management tool.
This turns the beast from a troublesome and dangerous varmint in the eyes of the villager to a great source of food and income. It is win win situation and I am happy to do it!
Greg
AStone
Member
Have you considered writing a book?
Greg, thanks for your responses. (I read your response to Killzone, also.) Very interesting.
Have you considered writing a book? I'm not sure what kinds of books are out there about hunting in Africa. I assume numerous, but have never looked.
If there's a niche for such writing, I recommend it for you. You have some great stories and obviously good knowledge of issues around hunting there, and are a very good writer (says the former college biology teacher who forced his students to write essay exams and graded them as much for writing skills as biology).
With a skilled editor, you'd be dynamite. I'd look into it if I were you. You're unlikely to become rich doing it - in fact, you could lose money. But IMO, your writing deserves to be read more widely than a web-based forum (even an excellent one like THR).
Best regards,
Nem
Greg, thanks for your responses. (I read your response to Killzone, also.) Very interesting.
Have you considered writing a book? I'm not sure what kinds of books are out there about hunting in Africa. I assume numerous, but have never looked.
If there's a niche for such writing, I recommend it for you. You have some great stories and obviously good knowledge of issues around hunting there, and are a very good writer (says the former college biology teacher who forced his students to write essay exams and graded them as much for writing skills as biology).
With a skilled editor, you'd be dynamite. I'd look into it if I were you. You're unlikely to become rich doing it - in fact, you could lose money. But IMO, your writing deserves to be read more widely than a web-based forum (even an excellent one like THR).
Best regards,
Nem
1911 guy
Member
Range and bullet performance
I can agree with the thought of Killzone's post about limiting his shots to 800 yards, although my limit is about half that. I use a .308 with 150 gr JSP's for deer and don't feel confident with either my ability or downrange performance beyond about 400 yards. The bullet is probably far more up to it than I am, but the limit is there for me.
Also, H&Hhunters stories are supremely entertaining and informative. I've always had the desire to hunt Africa, but funds dictate forays closer to home for now. Hey, I can still dream, though.
I can agree with the thought of Killzone's post about limiting his shots to 800 yards, although my limit is about half that. I use a .308 with 150 gr JSP's for deer and don't feel confident with either my ability or downrange performance beyond about 400 yards. The bullet is probably far more up to it than I am, but the limit is there for me.
Also, H&Hhunters stories are supremely entertaining and informative. I've always had the desire to hunt Africa, but funds dictate forays closer to home for now. Hey, I can still dream, though.
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