Crushed cigarette butt : Take the Mark

[sm]

This thread is about thinking.

Many folks have their gunfight already in their mind.

They replay what it will be like the day ONE Bad Guy singles them out, approaches them from the front, and "being in fear of my life" they do a perfect textbook draw from the hip-slick-cool holster and the ultimate-extreme pistol with the ammunition 9/10 Operators choose, saves the day, there is a ticker tape parade, free drinks, Keys to the City, and Pretty Girls, lined up, banging on their door for attention and affection.
Almost forgot the Internet and all that stuff too...

Dead is forever.

First off, one cannot be Aware all the time.
Human beings are human and as such cannot take in everything about their surroundings during the day.

Second, not all BGs are dumb and stupid.
There are a multitude of definitions of the criminal mind, what drives and defines them, and why they do what they do.

Third, this is a simple Natural Order of Life.
Prey and Predator have always existed, and will continue to be.

Acceptance is the key as they say.
Accept the fact for most folks, in the environment they live, activities of daily living [ADLs] and all, they will not be a victim if they use some common sense.


There are factors that contribute to one being more apt to be a victim.
Say a LEO, Probation Officer, or someone that works in a Prison.
If one opens and closes a business, makes bank deposits, is the branch manager of a bank, Old Money Family, ...
Various things increases the percentage of being a Mark.

Criminals are just wired different from law abiding folks, hence the reason we call them criminals.

They or a friend gets busted for DUI, Speeding, and the LEO, Probation Officer, or Corrections Employee is "targeted" to take out the resentments, frustrations, anger, and whatever else is driving and spurring them on.

--

J.Q Public parks the car and enters a grocery store , shops, exits and leaves parking lot with no problem.

LEO , Probation Officer, Corrections Officer, heck maybe the Elderly Lady that takes Pictures for Driver's License parks a vehicle and "by golly I will show/ get even for that DUI I/my buddy got".

Sorry, but some folks are just not that big of a deal, and being the boring folks they are, often times never get "Marked" as being Prey.

--


Now back to these prearranged gun fights.

Hate to tell you, but the greatest percentage is against the idea the BG is Alone.

Awareness : Criminals wrote the book on Awareness, reading people, places and things - literally wrote the book!

Those that study Crime and Criminals actually learn from Criminals , and continue to study Criminals.
I mean where else is best to get information about crime and criminals, than a criminal?

I will add some names here to help with an illustration.

J.Q is our Victim with his Gunfight all played and replayed in his mind.
J.Q. leaves the bank after getting cash, exits out the main entrance, turns the corner to where parked, ONE BG approaches, with a piece of Rebar, and J.Q. is able to side-step off the line, draw and do a perfect 2 COM and 1 to head.

J.Q.'s Funeral is day after tomorrow.



Mary, dressed in nice casual clothes, was piddling at the bank customer counter and looks like she is trying to balance her checkbook. J.Q was at the same counter and it was obvious J.Q was smug, and getting cash, $2500.

Mary notices J.Q.'s Keys, Lexus ...
"Oh, you have a Lexus, nice ride!" - Mary says.
"Yes, nice ride indeed , mine is White, tan interior, not as hot in the summer and the tan does not show dust as much ". J.Q. Volunteers.


Mary coughs, and Bob , who is reading the board to see what interest rates are, what CDs are paying, follows Mary's eyes to J.Q. and nods back at Mary.

Bob, dressed in nice clean jeans, oxford shirt, and with a brochure in hand, steps outside, and offers Joe a light for a smoke, small talk exchanged which is actually J.Q.'s Description, his car and the game plan is in motion.

Joe heads around to corner where Betty, Lisa and Tom are. J.Q is described, White Lexus, his wallet in left rear pocket, is right handed, and ....

Mary and Bob exit the bank.
Mary heads the opposite direction of parking lot.
Bob lights a cigarette, checking surroundings, using the mirrors on the bank... and when he gets to the corner, the coast is clear, drops his cigarette and crushes it underfoot.
This means Take the Mark.

Joe , Tom, Betty and Lisa knew before J.Q. even thought about tossing the wallet "over there" , to distract them, perhaps J.Q. has a gun, most likely right side, being right handed.

Tom had control of/ impeding J.Q.'s right arm , Too late for JQ's left arm going for the wallet trick. Tom just eased up from behind a parked car.

JQ's Eyes wide facing Joe with the piece of Rebar in hand is the last sight J.Q. ever saw.
Tom put the mousegun in JQ's ear and pulled the trigger twice.

JQ never saw anyone but Joe.

Betty in the get-a-way SUV, watching the lot pulls up, Tom, Joe get in, and Lisa is picked up at the other end of parking aisle. Lisa was the other lookout...


.

 

[shooter503]

About as much fantasy in this post as is claimed for the "average" CCW.

Please detail all daylight killings by multiple assailants involving rebar and mouse-guns in bank parking lots.

 

[igpoobah]

Good post.

Yeah, people tend to simplify scenarios in their head. While I think that particular scenario is a stretch, it's good to think about what we may see as simple as complex.

On the flip side, it's possible that the reason we view our 'gunfight' with only one person is maybe that is all our minds are capable of sanely comprehending. What I mean by this is that if we ran around all day envisioning scenarios like the one you layed out we would have nothing short of a small arsenal in our pants and several armed gaurds to deal with such a scenario. Some people wouldn't even leave the house. :banghead:

Common sense says don't flash your $$ though. Even if I was loaded I would still drive a beater.

You wouldn't catch me dead in a lexus. Well...you might.

 

[Tokugawa]

The point here is to not think you are going to pick the fight .
And to realize a gun is only a tool.
The brain is the weapon. Situational awareness is far more important than tools.
And last, what SM is ALWAYS trying to drill into our heads--
DISCRETION!

 

[Dravur]

Frankly...

I can come up with thousands of Scenarios involving anything from 1 guy to a thousand starving zombies and each one turns out bad.... Conversely, I can come up with several thousand more where I come out on top standing on a mound of zombie corpses while holding a smoking M-60......

So what?

I carry to give myself a better chance. I know that I am not carrying a raygun or phasor that will immediatly and neatly disintigrate an attacker and can also be used to bake a cake. If something goes down, I have a shot at getting my pistol out and into play. Will it work every time? nope, but it is better than not having it and finding you needed it. If I have to use it and I have the time, and the duty, I will use it. I hope to never have to.

I also don't think about walking down the street, steely eyed, waiting for that desperado granny to pull her peice so I can whack her. I do keep an eye on people who look hinky to me and I try to stay situationally aware.

Thats the best anyone can do.

 

[DMK]

What I mean by this is that if we ran around all day envisioning scenarios like the one you layed out we would have nothing short of a small arsenal in our pants and several armed gaurds to deal with such a scenario. Some people wouldn't even leave the house.

Actually, JQ's mistake was arrogance and materialism. He was quick to show off his wealth and extravagant lifestyle.

Realistically, not much you can do by yourself against five smart, stealthy and organized attackers who would kill for 2500 bucks without blinking an eye (not a big haul split five ways. Certainly not worth all that trouble. I was waiting for them to take the car to chop it).

Even if he noticed something fishy, they might have been able to adapt (and none of those clues would be unusual by themselves unless you could see the whole picture from a distance).

Best thing he could have done to avoid that would have been to appear 'uninteresting'.

 

[Walkalong]

It happens when you least suspect, and it happens FAST. They have prepared and know the time and the game plan. You don't.

 

[mdao]

That's a whole lot of verbiage to get this across.

Sorry, but some folks are just not that big of a deal, and being the boring folks they are, often times never get "Marked" as being Prey.

 

[JESmith]

About as much fantasy in this post as is claimed for the "average" CCW.

SM is not off the mark here. Change the location to any country "south of the border". JQ is a tourist with a fancy rental car. This scene plays itself out in real life nearly every day. Local police just shake their heads and say "stupid gringos". Take away the lessons of this scenario.

1. Don't make yourself a victim.
2. Criminals rarely act alone.
3. Criminals rarely play fair.

 

[trueblue1776]

I can come up with thousands of Scenarios involving anything from 1 guy to a thousand starving zombies and each one turns out bad.... Conversely, I can come up with several thousand more where I come out on top standing on a mound of zombie corpses while holding a smoking M-60......

I'm a traditionalist, I prefer the MG-42. So many funny jokes could get me banned right now.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I think what sm is trying to point out is "situational awareness". Somebody posted recently that it's a lot of fun to "point out the obvious to the oblivious".

An awful lot of people walking around my city with earbuds and iPods and absolutely no concept of what is going on around them.

I KNOW that I've avoided two muggings in the past 6 months, simply by being aware. In one case, the guy pacing me noticed my head was on a swivel and decided to look elsewhere--just being alert is sometimes enough to discourage an attempt.

 

[BullfrogKen]

What Steve is talking about has value. He just takes a while to say it.


Those who study the art of self-defense, especially armed self-defense, envision what the fight will look like in their mind. The Student will put together a series of events that he thinks will represent the fight. The problem is, the fight he prepared for has no relation to reality.

Most often the Practitioner envisions the fight of the mugger approaching him on the street for his wallet. He envisions some form of announcement by the Criminal that he intends to rob him, and then the Practitioner trains to deliver his chosen response. This thought process is common to nearly every Practitioner, and nearly every "What would you do if _______?" thread begun on a gun board contains those elements.


The fight the Practitioner envisions is constructed with nearly no background of how Violent Criminal Actors actually think and work their crimes. VCA's don't work alone. They have years of experience in victimizing others. They act, think, and work in ways the decent citizen has no experience with. So . . . when that envisioned fight is constructed, it simply doesn't accurately reflect reality. How can it?


In the "typical street mugging" nearly every single one involves more than one Criminal Actor. Sure, the victim may have only seen one man - the one who actually confronted him. That tells us he didn't see the others acting in concert. They were there; the victim simply never knew it.


What does that tell us about our training, and what we should pursue?

• Don't dismiss the criminal.

We should listen to what Violent Criminal Actors say about how they work and how they think. Since most of us can't simply go candidly talk to criminals, we should to seek out those who have and listen to what they report.​

• "What would you do?" scenarios have limited value

Frankly, scenarios constructed by those ignorant of how crimes are actually carried out have almost no value. And the only response that matters is yours, and what you would do. My answers will work for you about as well as my pants would fit you.​

• If you must envision fights to solve, construct good ones

Construct those mental battles with several VCA's acting in concert, having planned the encounter long before you got to the scene. And base the interaction off of a criminal's description on how he worked it, not how you think he does.​

• There is no substitute for quality Force on Force training

Good FoF encounters destroy fantasies.​

 

[browningguy]

Sorry, but I'm not sure there is much value. Four people casing individuals at a bank, one standing outside the bank with a hunk of rebar? Seems even less than unlikely, although granted anything is possible.

As already mentioned there are thousands of possible scenarios that end badly even for the well prepared, so what, doesn't mean I'm going to be less prepared. To be honest this is one scenario I would never even consider out here in suburbia, I do consider multiple assailants when I'm going downtown, especially at night.

 

[BullfrogKen]

browningguy said: Sorry, but I'm not sure there is much value. Four people casing individuals at a bank, one standing outside the bank with a hunk of rebar? Seems even less than unlikely, although granted anything is possible.

Actually, it has great value. If you read the account of a specific event, and then think you need to plan for that same event, you are not approaching the study with the proper mindset.

What are the learning points from Steve's event? Its not be wary of guy a with a piece of rebar.

• The criminal actors worked as a team
• Each VCA has a specific job
• They cased a location, and then they acted as a team to select a victim
• The victim only focused on the obvious threat
• The team backed up the initiator
• Those whose job it was to back up the initiator didn't announce their presence; they waited to respond only when the victim made their involvement necessary

This is actually a very good example of how criminals will work a crime. In fact, this crime is typical of how muggings are carried out. The specifics aren't important. The principles are.

 

[TallPine]

I practice being tactically poor

(or at least appearing that way)

 

[Car Knocker]

Interestingly enough, this scenario has many similarities to a string of jewelry salesmen being robbed in Utah.

Police doubt the robberies are an inside job. The leading theory is that the thieves watch jewelry stores for the salesmen and then rob them when they get out of their cars. Whether this is the work of a few robbers or something more organized isn't clear, either.

It's clear this is not a random crime but that the salesmen are being targeted, and the robbers are violent. They've pointed a gun at one victim and yesterday seriously cut the victim in the hand when he refused to give up his merchandise.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=984864&nid=148

Awareness is a good thing.

 

[sm]

Interestingly enough, this scenario has many similarities to a string of jewelry salesmen being robbed in Utah.

Yep.

Professional Thugs , as I have typed and shared about before.

All I will say is, I was raised into an environment where Professional Thugs targeted folks, even me as a baby.

I am dead serious, grab me as a baby, a toddler, elementary school age...and now the Professional Thugs have leverage to get someone to open a business , turn off alarms, and open safes.

There are a number of Industries Professional Thugs Target.
Ken, Jeff White and others know, that I know somethings about these Professional Thugs and Industries.
For my security , I cannot , or will not say more.


True.
My brain did not register that painter/maintenance fellow wearing really nice shoes.
When the rear passenger glass, behind my in the drivers seat exploded from being shot out, as I was hauling butt to evade, "dumbass! Painters do NOT wear those kinds of shoes!" reverberated through my brain.
Dry mouth, heart rate up, sweat, and I was in literal fear of my life as I evaded.
It was not pretty, It was not textbook, but I owned a parking deck, the sidewalk, and folks got out of my way as I went the wrong way on a one way street.

A day later my brain remembered how nice and manicured that "painters" fingernails were as well.

Ever seen a Painter with nice hands, no paint, manicured nails and wearing nice shoes?

I screwed up big time that day.
Lady Luck showed up, thank goodness!!

 

[cracked butt]

Great thread!
SM always has some good wisdom in his stories even if it is subtle.

There's a reason why I drive a beat up old rusted pickup up truck to work where I need to drive through a few miles of bad neighborhood to get to. The vehicle doesn't draw attention nor does it make me look like a big payday.

The criminals act in teams for sure. Even the teenage thugs (maybe I'm wrong, but I feel they are the most dangerous due to a lack of experience) in my area tend to act in groups of 2 or more. A friend of mine's neighbor was mugged right outside his condo's door a month or so ago. The Condos are high priced and located on the boundary area of good/bad neighborhoods. The man walked out his door, and he immediately had guns pointed at him from both sides, they took him to a Tyme machine, made him clean out his accounts, took his luxury car, and to add insult to injury, dropped him off in the worst section of town, but at least he lived through it.

 

[CPerdue]

So, what is a good source of info on the criminal way of thinking and planning? Favorite reading list anyone? All I can offer is The Gift of Fear, which basically tells you to pay attention to your intuition.

 

[shooter503]

Books by Remsberg.

"The Tactical Edge" and "Street Survival". They used to be standard issue but I think they are now considered a little, shall we say, non-PC.

 

[Smoke]

One can not plan for every attack. But if one does not plan at all, he will fail.
The military has proven that soldiers react how they are trained. IT has also been proven that where there is no training there is no action.

Anybody remember the old Pink Panther movies? Where Kato attacked Clousseau unexpectedly? Tell one of your buddies to stage an "attack" on you some time, see if he can get in a position to disable you, strike you, etc. It's actually pretty easy on even the most prepared.

I was in a walmart awhile back, not the one we usually visit, different town. As I was idling through an aisle, I felt someone try to grab my wallet, seems it had worked up so an inch or so was above my pocket. The time delay for my brain to actually figure out what had happened was almost scary....slow. I turned to the thief to discover a friend of mine, grinning and hand me my billfold back.

I was not aware he was in the store. I was not prepared for a robbery. I was not aware of my surroundings. I was not aware of my personal possessions even on my body.

Had he been a real theif, and had run as soon as he snatched my billfold, he could have had a big advantage in distance before I even responded. I likely could not have caught up.

An eye opening experience. Train. Train not just with a gun, train without a gun. Train with full contact. Most people if suddenly and with out provocation were hit in the face with a full force swing, would be so dumbfounded as to cause an almost shut down of reactive thinking....don't beleive me, most will not react under that situation.

Training is the only thing that will save your life, not the gun, not the knife, not the OC spray, not the paintball games or the level of computerninjabadasskiller you reached, nor will the post count on here matter...it will be the hardest force on force training that you ever participated in that will save you. The more training you do, the better your odds of survival. The more often you train, alone and in groups, the better prepared you will be for any attack.

Smoke

 

[shooter503]

SM and Smoke have made valuable points and they should have steered our thinking in useful directions. However, I feel that both posters have failed to consider the wide range of people that this site caters to. The wish to possess a firearm for self-defence does not, and should not, dictate that one must enter into a life of stress and constant suspicion advocated by these posts.

Let's face it, this site caters for all ages from 18 to 80 and physical conditions from current combat experience to couch-potato. If individuals wish to convert themselves to the ultimate fighting machine ready to take on crowds of 300 rioters or multiple armed bank-robbers single-handed I applaud their efforts. This is not a practical option for the average man. This poses the question - what training and habits should the average individual who wishes to carry a firearm in self-defence impose upon themselves?

I would suggest:
AVOID TROUBLE.
Most important. If you don't get into trouble you do not have to fight your way out. Pointers to avoid trouble have been discussed in various posts. As a simple example. why go to the local "stop and rob" at 10pm when you could have done it at 5pm?
STAY REASONABLY FIT.
Statistically 50% of the population could not run 100 yards without being out of breath. Does this include you? Can you run from a criminal? Could you actually perform hand to hand combat at any level if you had to? Can you grip a pistol like a tool or do you grip it like a fork?
TRAIN WITH YOUR FIREARM.
Especially in more realistic scenarios. Slow fire punching holes in targets may be fun but it has almost zero value on a dark night.
Learn to draw smoothly and reliably, and if possible unobtrusively, from under normal street clothes.

 

[BullfrogKen]

CPerdue said: So, what is a good source of info on the criminal way of thinking and planning? Favorite reading list anyone?

Inside the Criminal Mind by Dr. Samenow is a good book.

<edit> I did a short review on this book for our group's on-line newsletter this month. http://www.teddytactical.com/index_files/TeddyTalk.htm Listed under "Featured Article".

Short of knowing someone who actually makes it their life's work to speak candidly to criminals, most of us have to get it from less than ideal sources.

Sometimes one of the several reality television show that portrays the events of a crime are good sources. The more the show focuses on criminal interviews, and less on police forensics and eyewitness accounts, the more you'll learn about the way criminals work. Its still incomplete, because the criminal will still be guarded in his conversations, but its a good step.


Smoke,

Training is important. But this suggestion is just silly:

smoke said: Train with full contact. Most people if suddenly and with out provocation were hit in the face with a full force swing, would be so dumbfounded as to cause an almost shut down of reactive thinking

Good training does not include beating up on each other.

 

[sm]

Let's face it, this site caters for all ages from 18 to 80 and physical conditions from current combat experience to couch-potato.

Actually THR and Sister Sites cater those from Toddlers to Century aged individuals.
Add the fact Internet is Global, meaning while we in the United States have jurisdictions where firearm are restricted, we have members and viewers from all over the world with restrictions as well.

We have members and viewers Restricted with other tools besides Firearms, Edged Weapons and the ability to defend - period.

Evil is Evil, and one way Evil performs his duties is through the Criminal.

So what can a 5 year old and a 95 year old do?

Oh yes they can...

 

[James T Thomas]

heart condition

"CPerdue" had asked for a good source of information on the criminal way of thinking and planning.

Review the original post by "sm." If ever there is a glimpse into the criminal mind, it is right there. The crushed cigarette; squelching the victim.

What I mean is ego! It is out in front in the thinking described.
Very revealing as to the criminal's conception of himself.

Here is what I mean. "Taking out resentments, frustrations, getting even, etc.
For what? Well for making the unfortunate and helpless, child like criminal feel bad about himself and his life situation, that's what.

His view is that someone has to "pay." He has an unmature understanding of himself and the world he lives in, and in his selection of victims he chooses one who shows glimpses of ego, like he himself holds; how dare they make a display of ego that will make him the goat. In the victimization of someone, the criminal gets gratification that he has outsmarted someone selected who looks down on the criminal, or has made a display giving that impression publicly. And the criminal has identified it. Resentment.

The "JQ" examples. JQ was recognized as smug. ( "It takes one to know one.") Poor old JQ must be taught a lesson by his superiors. He is now a "big deal" and not a boring sheep.

Do you recognize the mind set? Looking down upon the masses. Selecting a "mark?" Even those who are characterized as "dumb crooks" have that great swelled (it's defensive) ego.

I suppose the public comes to grips with those who think this way, by a generalizing conclusion of "they are sick in their mind."

The sickness of extreme pride; egotistical slime.