Crushing 44 cases.
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gonoles_1980
Member
Do you have a 44 spl die set? If so, following the instructions will crush a 44 mag case.
You're post is a little confusing, is it the powder and expanding die that's crushing the case or the Bullet seating die?
My guess, based on your post, and it is a guess, is that you are following the instructions which are for a 44spl.
You're post is a little confusing, is it the powder and expanding die that's crushing the case or the Bullet seating die?
My guess, based on your post, and it is a guess, is that you are following the instructions which are for a 44spl.
Schwing
Member
Are you seating and crimping with the same die? If so, you need to make sure that your depth puts you about in the middle of the crimp groove or cannelure.
The problem you can run into is that, when seating and crimping in the same operation, the bullet is not 100% done moving down before it starts to crimp. If it starts to crimp and the crimp hits the edge of the crimp grove, it doesn't have anywhere to go so it crushes the case.
If that isn't the problem, then it is most likely just too much crimp. Back it off a bit.,.. or maybe a lot.
The problem you can run into is that, when seating and crimping in the same operation, the bullet is not 100% done moving down before it starts to crimp. If it starts to crimp and the crimp hits the edge of the crimp grove, it doesn't have anywhere to go so it crushes the case.
If that isn't the problem, then it is most likely just too much crimp. Back it off a bit.,.. or maybe a lot.
They say lee 44magnum dies. I set it up for how it says for magnum. I
Size, flare which doesn't feel like it's doing anything and seat the bullet and when starting to seat it's shaving copper and crushing the side of the case at the mouth where it's cutting into the bullet
Size, flare which doesn't feel like it's doing anything and seat the bullet and when starting to seat it's shaving copper and crushing the side of the case at the mouth where it's cutting into the bullet
Schwing
Member
That sounds more like it still isn't flaring enough to allow the bullet to enter the case mouth without crushing it. I would turn the powder through/expanding die down a bit to add more flare. you should be able to actually see the belling in the case mouth. You should have just enough flare that the bullet can be set into the case and not fall out.
If you could post a pic of what the cases look like after being flared, that would help some.
I know it is frustrating but the people here will help us much as possible until you get it going
If you could post a pic of what the cases look like after being flared, that would help some.
I know it is frustrating but the people here will help us much as possible until you get it going
gonoles_1980
Member
Schwing is most likely correct.
When you flare the case with the powder expanding die, can you seat a bullet on top of the case and it will sit on it easily? If not, you need to expand the flare little, just to a small amount at the time, you only want the bullet to be able to sit on it. The fact you're shaving copper off tells me you have set the flare large enough.
After you get that correct.
I would back out the top knob all the way so you would get zero crimp on the bullet seeding die, and just try seating the bullet. Only add back the crimp when you get the bullet seated correctly.
I've never crimped with the seating die, I use a separate Factory Crimp Die.
When you flare the case with the powder expanding die, can you seat a bullet on top of the case and it will sit on it easily? If not, you need to expand the flare little, just to a small amount at the time, you only want the bullet to be able to sit on it. The fact you're shaving copper off tells me you have set the flare large enough.
After you get that correct.
I would back out the top knob all the way so you would get zero crimp on the bullet seeding die, and just try seating the bullet. Only add back the crimp when you get the bullet seated correctly.
I've never crimped with the seating die, I use a separate Factory Crimp Die.
snuffy
Member
HUH??¿¿
Very unclear just what you're talking about. Which die are you using when you're crushing the case?
The expander/powder through die flares the case in the last tiny bit of press ram upward movement. Since you're so vague about what you're talking about, we have to guess.
Are you using a powder measure on top of #2 die, the expander flaring die? If not, that aluminum collar/nut HAS to be screwed tightly into the top of the die for it to do anything. If you are using a powder measure, (like the auto disc, or auto drum), it has to be set to go full stroke, (to dump powder), then stop to allow for the flare to occur--again in the last bit of ram travel--.
Please give precise info on what yer talkin' 'bout!
Schwing
Member
yes. you have to have something screwed into the top of the die to keep the little collar in place that does the flaring. The die probably came with a little powder funnel thing screwed into the top. you would remove that if you are using a Lee auto drum. To increase flare, the die itself needs to be screwed in deeper.
Also, make sure you clean that sucker (the powder through die) out really well. They come from the factory with a lot of crap on them and you won't get consistent powder drops if it is dirty.
Cheesemaker
Member
I have the Lee die set for 44 mag - no issues here.
Follow the advice given - check the flare. It does feel like it does not do anything. If your flare is not the problem. Check the crimp - if your die is set to crimp before you have finished seating - the case goes bye-bye. I seat and crimp in one step - it can be done.
Follow the advice given - check the flare. It does feel like it does not do anything. If your flare is not the problem. Check the crimp - if your die is set to crimp before you have finished seating - the case goes bye-bye. I seat and crimp in one step - it can be done.
Well I kept turning it in until it would flare and it's about 1 turn out from touching the shell holder, bullet was able to sit inside case about 0.100 and I seated it and put in my handi rifle and it chambered fine. I
Played with roll crimp too.
Played with roll crimp too.
30Cal
Member
You want the mouth flared just enough to get the base of the bullet fit in there.
Bumps like you describe in the post immediately above are typical when handloading straightwall cases. If they chamber fine, then forget about it. I managed to get your picture open and didn't really see anything. Back off on the crimp. A little goes a long way and it's easy to invent new problems w/ too much crimp.
Bumps like you describe in the post immediately above are typical when handloading straightwall cases. If they chamber fine, then forget about it. I managed to get your picture open and didn't really see anything. Back off on the crimp. A little goes a long way and it's easy to invent new problems w/ too much crimp.
Reefinmike
Member
flare the case enough so the bullet sits just inside the case without any excess airspace between the bullet and case before seating/crimping. Lee's website has many tutorials on how to reload. Their # of turns setup guideline is merely a guideline. It shouldnt take more than a couple minutes to set up your dies.
Not putting that powder funnel plug on top your powder through expander die was why there was no flare, it had nothing to stop the expander. Its very difficult to seat a flat base bullet with no belling of the case mouth.
Yes, the bump in the brass at the base of the bullet is normal. That is your neck tension you see there in action. The bump should be uniform all the way around. if it is not, that means you are seating your bullets crooked.
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Reefinmike
Member
This is about the maximum I flare my brass. I only go this big because it makes seating and crimping in one step much smoother. The lee 500 mag bullet has a rather short and shallow cannelure, especially with a thick powdercoat on top.
Edit- over flaring wont blow your gun up or anything but it will lead to shorter case life due to work hardening the brass and if flared too much, it will catch when going in the seating die possibly crushing the mouth.
Edit- over flaring wont blow your gun up or anything but it will lead to shorter case life due to work hardening the brass and if flared too much, it will catch when going in the seating die possibly crushing the mouth.
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Ole Joe Clark
Member
I would get a good reloading book and read it before I proceeded further.
A photo is worth about 10,000 words.
A photo is worth about 10,000 words.
I have 2 manuals I read but it doesn't help when I die instruction says turn touching shell holder than 2 3/4 out and it doesn't work. Even with that funnel cap completely tight per lee instructions I don't get any flare unless I turn it down to 1 to 1 1/2 away from shell holder.
Care to elaborate why I should stop before moving forward? Not arguing but looking for help.
Care to elaborate why I should stop before moving forward? Not arguing but looking for help.
sugarmaker
Member
Is your seating die too far in, so its crimping the bullet as its being seated?
nope made sure of that. I wasn't getting any flare at all cause the die was set up wrong and I didn't know the cap for the funnel needed tightened.
the brass wasn't flared so grabbed the side of the bullet and started cutting it. I would really like to know why lee's instructions don't flare so ill call them in the morning hoping I don't have a bad die or something.
Reefinmike
Member
Here is an easy way to get your dies setup.
Sizing die- Raise ram all the way and screw in die until it makes firm contact with the shell holder. Then screw it in an eighth of a turn to ensure the shellholder bottoms out on the base of the die.
Expander die- Take a sized piece of brass, put it in the shellholder and send the ram up all the way. Screw in your die until you make firm contact with the mouth of the brass. Pull the brass away and continue to slowly seat the die deeper checking in between adjustments for the proper case flare as shown in post #17
Seat/crimp die- Take your previously sized and expanded case, put it in the shellholder. Screw in the seating stem all the way. Start slowly screwing in the die and seating a bullet, checking in between adjustments. You won't have any crimp applied yet, just a reference to your desired OAL. Next, back the seater stem all the way out. Raise the loaded round(sans crimp) into the die body and screw the die in until you feel it make firm contact with the case mouth. Then pull the round out and start slowly turning in the die until desired crimp is obtained. Next with the round raised fully into the die, screw in your seating stem until it makes firm contact with the bullet and your dies are set.
If you have a loaded round with the same brass/bullet/crimp you desire to use, you can use it to set up your seat/crimp die even faster. Just back the seating stem all the way out, put the round in the shellholder, raise ram. Screw in die until the crimp makes firm contact with the brass. Then screw down the seating stem and you are done.
Written out it looks like a lot to do, but in reality it shouldnt take more than 2-3 minutes to get your dies tuned in just right given a case and a bullet.
Please just drop the lee 1.25, -3 then .5 turns of the die instructions. they are guidelines to get you in the right ballpark and arent working for you. If you aren't careful when using their guidelines you can crush cases.
Damon555
Member
All the expander plugs I've messed with start getting noticeably tighter long before the actual expanding process begins. You might think you are belling the cases but in actuality have not reached the wider part of the plug yet. Keep setting it deeper until you can actually see the case mouth opening up. Don't worry about expanding a case too much when getting the die set up....Crimping will put it back where it needs to be....but when you set up the expander it just needs to barely flare the case mouth.....just enough to allow the bullet to get started without harming itself or the case.
gonoles_1980
Member
I've crushed cases before (not counting .380 cases), and the reasons have been one of two reasons.
1. I had the crimper part of the seating die screwed in too far. Since I don't use the crimper part, I screw it back all the way (I use a separate crimping die).
2. I was using a crimping die to seat my bullets.
1. I had the crimper part of the seating die screwed in too far. Since I don't use the crimper part, I screw it back all the way (I use a separate crimping die).
2. I was using a crimping die to seat my bullets.
RecoilRob
Member
I flare the case enough to hold a bullet upside down after it's pressed in by hand. You can use a little less with jacketed and maybe a wee bit more for lead. Somewhere I've read that sometimes the Lee directions might not exactly be matching up to what dies you have. Better to just look at what you have and make it work. The 'powder through expander' die does take some effort to push into a fully sized case and will drag the full length of the bullet before getting to the actual bell flaring part.
I don't want to tell you to ignore the instructions, but if what they're telling you to do isn't working....pull out the expander and look at it. Compare it to a case so you can see how deep it needs to go to expand...and then do it.
The 'powder through expander' die does take some effort to push into a fully sized case and will drag the full length of the bullet before getting to the actual bell flaring part. I don't want to tell you to ignore the instructions, but if what they're telling you to do isn't working....pull out the expander and look at it. Compare it to a case so you can see how deep it needs to go to expand...and then do it.
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