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CT: CCW holder victim of road rage, gets arrested

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Andrew Rothman, Jul 25, 2005.

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  1. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    http://www.middletownpress.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14902489&BRD=1645&PAG=461&dept_id=10856&rfi=6

    This looks like nothing more than standard "arrest the gun" behavior on the part of the police.

    If that "elongated flashlight" is what I think it was -- a Mag light with three, four or five D-cell batteries -- it WAS a freakin' club.

    If a guy followed me off of the highway in broad daylight, started yelling at me, and brandished a big-ass club of a flashlight (in broad daylight, remember -- sunset was still more than two hours away ), I think I'd make sure my gun was ready, too.

    No one implied that the permit holder pointed the gun at the jerk with the flashlight, although the big black flashlight was "waved."

    It sure looks to me like the permit holder was a victim of road rage and took reasonable, non-provocative steps to end the threat.
     
  2. thatguy

    thatguy Member

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    Guy with flashlight is a monumental jerk. But guy with gun should have known better. I don't see any immediate threat in a club held by a man in another car. No way he could immediately hurt you with it. Carrying a gun puts you at what the law calls "a higher standard" and you have to be MORE reasonable in your actions than when you aren't armed. CCW guy blew it and he will pay the price unless he has access to a great attorney.

    Oh, the flashlight guy should also be charged with something, but that doesn't excuse gun guy who over-reacted IMO.
     
  3. HighVelocity

    HighVelocity Member

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    +1

    The "Oh yeah?! My weapon is better than your weapon" attitude will get you nowhere but incarcerated.
     
  4. antsi

    antsi Member

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    Following another driver off the highway to force a confrontation is a highly aggressive and threatening move in and of itself. A d-cell mag lite can be a very effective weapon, capable of inflicting serious injury and/or death. The gun guy was justified in thinking he was being threatened with lethal force. Up to that point, I'd say his actions were justifiable (if not ideal; more later).

    It gets fuzzy after Flashlight Guy left the scene and Gun Guy started following him. That starts looking like an aggressive action on HIS part.

    Judges, juries, newspaper reporters, and other assorted liberal blissninnies are used to flashlights (benign, nonthreatening everyday household object) while even posessing a firearm locked in a safe at home is highly suspicious.

    Gun Guy didn't have to stop. If he had a cell phone, a much more defensible course of action would have been to call the po-po and say "I've got this crazy road rage jerk following me off the highway. Tell me where you've got a patrol car and I'll try to lead him there." Then, if even if somehow you do wind up having to confront the guy and defend yourself with your firearm, you've demonstrated you were trying to avoid confrontation and trying to put it in the hands of the cops, and you used your gun "only as a last resort."

    In this situation, you want your actions to say clearly, "I was trying to stay out of trouble and avoid this confrontation. At the time I pulled out my gun, I had exhausted all other reasonable options."

    The impression you do not want to let them think is, "These two hot-headed jerks got in a confrontation with each other. One of them had a flashlight, and the other one had a gun."
     
  5. WT

    WT Member

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    Sounds like 2 idiots in road rage.

    Shea should not have brandished his pistol. Additionally, he ought not to have followed the other guy after doing so.

    Now Shea gets a chance to spend lots of money supporting the legal profession.
     
  6. one-shot-one

    one-shot-one Member

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    also....

    i do not believe the gun holder should have followed after the "club" holder broke off, he should have seperated and phone the police himself, this especially with his kid in the car.
     
  7. Frandy

    Frandy Member

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    +2
     
  8. HankB

    HankB Member

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    I think Shea's biggest blunder was following the other guy.

    It sounds like he initially sought to break contact, and only pulled his gun when the other guy waved some object (not clear if Shea could tell what it was) in his direction. At this point, when the other guy broke off the confrontation, Shea should've done so, too.

    But he didn't . . .

    In the (thankfully) few instances I've been a target of potential road rage, I smile, wave, shrug, and let the other guy *think* I'm apologizing for *whatever* he thinks I did. He drives off happy, figuring that I'm a wimp and that he's Mr. Tough Guy, and I drive off happy that I "de-escalated" the situation and avoided having to shoot someone.
     
  9. jondar

    jondar Member

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    This could be an object lesson to all of us. I've seen it happen so many times. When the school bully gets knocked on his keister, he runs to the teacher. As posted, the gun owner should have called 911 but maybe he didn't have a cell phone. As posted, he shouldn't have pulled over. As posted he shouldn't have left himself open to a charge of brandishing. I certainly wish him luck and hope he gets to retain his permit.
     
  10. dasmi

    dasmi Member

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    Oh, only an elongated flashlight. Well I guess that couldn't possibly be used to hurt anyone with.
    Oh wait, don't police carry elongated flashlights, because they make excellent blunt force weapons?
     
  11. Omni04

    Omni04 Member

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    i agree that the flash light wielding maniac should get charged with something... i mean the police say that all the actions he did were all reasonable?

    following somebody, yelling at them about their driving, then waving around a flashlight...
     
  12. halvey

    halvey Member

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    Matt
    In Minnesota, do you think he'd have been arrested?

    Guys, just because he was arrested, does not mean he is in trouble or will be charged. The police can arrest and hold you for 72 hours with little reason.
     
  13. grimjaw

    grimjaw Member

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    I don't understand why Shea couldn't have just driven off and left Morris 'waving a club' at his receeding license plate, before showing his weapon. He let his anger get the better of him when he started following the guy. I don't like being intimidated any more than the next person, but I won't have the luxury of impotent flashlight waving and screaming once I get a CCW permit.

    +1 on the cellphone suggestions. The yearly price of the phone is less than his bond.
     
  14. mete

    mete Member

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    They're both idiots and should be locked up ! Shea should have tried to get away from Morris and notify police . Instead he escalated the situation which makes him just as guilty. Morris was an idiot for endangering his kid .If he had a problem he should have called the police ....Walk away from an incident NEVER escalate in any way.
     
  15. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    "When Shea exited Route 9 at exit 19, Morris followed him off, police said, and pulled alongside him to remonstrate with Shea about his driving..."

    That was the point where things went wrong, and Morris was at fault. It was not his duty or place to follow Shea off the road and "remonstrate" with him. If he was sufficiently concerned, he should have called the police and reported the incident. His actions placed him and his child in danger. The other car could have been stolen or driven by a wanted killer.

    "Do gooders" often get themselves and others in trouble. It looks like this time, Shea, not without fault on his own part, was the one who got into the most trouble.

    Jim
     
  16. bubbygator

    bubbygator Member

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    In most states, a gun is not a device to "de-escalate" a situation... that is only for LEO's. A civilian's gun is strictly for defense against lethal attack; and as someone mentioned, a civilian CCW is held to a higher standard. In some states, a person's auto is considered the same as his home, & he is not obligated to retreat from an attack before it becomes a lethal threat... but he still can't simply brandish without consequences.
     
  17. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    Sorry, guys: I just don't think moving a gun from glove compartment to lap is "brandishing."

    In Minneapolis, yeah. In Eden Prairie, probably not. Elsewhere, your guess is as good as mine.
     
  18. culleniii

    culleniii Member

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    1. The a 3-5 d or c cell flashlight is a deadly weapon and more deadlier then a standard billy club. There have been many documented killings by this.

    2. I know "officer" joey dimuaro..thats a frickin joke he even is an "officer"--I went to high school with him. He is an idiot and got on the force because its one of those small town political things.

    3. why do these people stop and talk for driving. In a vehilce-- one can just keep going unless someone tries to run you off road or block you in and then you have a good shoot situation.

    4. I dont seee an issue here--man showed club ---victim showed gun --whats the problem?

    5. why wasnt club guy issued a citation for brandishing?

    6. Humm seems to me the Cromwell police are as usual excited about doing something to the permit holder when he hasnt even been convicted of a crime. Saying they cill call DPS about his permit when it hasnt even gone through court system.
     
  19. NineseveN

    NineseveN member

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  20. Billmanweh

    Billmanweh Member

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    If he just moved it from the glove box to his lap and didn't brandish it, how'd the other driver know he had it?
     
  21. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    Moral of the story:

    If you need to display a firearm because somebody is threatening you with a weapon, 1) don't follow the jerk thereafter, 2) get a good description of the offender, because 3) you need to be the FIRST one to call the police, preferably with that good description of the offender. Following the guy just makes you look like you were spoiling for a fight, and that is probably what ended up getting the guy arrested more than anything else.
     
  22. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Of course, arrest the guy with the gun because he escalated this entire situation from words to brandishing weapons. If it wasn't for his pistol, the two would only briefly exchange words, shake hands, and part ways with a greater understanding of the meaning of life. :rolleyes:

    -Guy with the flashlight:
    hmm, I'm gonna shut this guy up. If I pull this big metal object out, I'll get the upperhand since he has nothing! *pulls out flashlight*

    -guy with firearm:
    "uhoh, looks like he means business, he pulled out something big and black" *reaches over to chamber a round in his legally obtained gun*

    -guy with flashlight:
    "doh! he one upped me, run!"

    -guy with gun:
    *follows flashlightboy so he can get description and license of vehicle to report to police, is on the phone meanwhile*

    -guy with flashlight:
    *sees cop, pulls over ahead of gunguy. Gets out "help, this nut with a gun is chasing me!" *wins*

    You know...because the guy with the gun is always the aggressor and the actions of the opposing party are completely nullified.
     
  23. Feanaro

    Feanaro Member

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    I believe they call it a window. You can see through it. More seriously, imagine you are pulled up beside a car, say on the driver's side, to admonish the driver(for whatever reason). Who are you looking at? The driver. If he leans over, opens the glove compartment, makes his pistol ready, and then places it in his lap... how are you NOT going to see it?
     
  24. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    Anybody else think they would have said it looked like a shotgun?

    DM
     
  25. yorec

    yorec Member

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    What good is it if it doesn't go BANG when you pull the trigger?

    If I remember correctly a CZ75 is double action capable... so unless he was carrying without one in the chamber and the "cocking" aciton was actually catching up to put a round in it's proper place, the action of drawing the hammer back was unneccessary and could very well be construed as threatening. Doh! :uhoh:

    On the other hand if he was catching up by finally placing a round in the chamber upon confrontation with the big nasty black club... See first sentence.

    Proper action/non action in the face of such encounters is what keeps people out of trouble. Mr. CCW need more education/tactical trainning. Hope he gets a chance to obtain such knowledge in the future as he may very well have lost the opportunity to use it... :(

    Should have been on the phone as soon as the guy left. Pursuit is not a good idea - who knows what other weaponry the dude had in his car? Looking for trouble by pursuing - and it will be made to appear he was continuing the threat, true or false.
     
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